HUH?? Give me a freaking break! :evil: With all the PC BS these days, I'm surprised that the term ILLEGAL immigrant can even be used without people going ape about it. Okay, someone think of a nice PC term for these poor people. :roll: Edited to add this... oh lookie, I didn't even catch it... illegal IMMIGRANT is a PC term for illegal ALIEN. Can't say illegal alien anymore. Before long, illegal won't be in the title either, I'm sure. This is from the WTVD discussion forum... How is it that a stupid little town like Chapel Hill can get away with disobeying the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? Hey, I have an idea... let's incorporate the whole 4042 area and pass our own little law saying all residents do not have to pay taxes to the IRS! :twisted:
Undocumented alien. :mrgreen: Here's the part I don't get: When a person is arrested for a crime and it is subsequently discovered that they are here illegally, is local law enforcement not obligated to turn that person over to the immigration authorities? I can understand if they say they have more important things to do than go around looking for illegal immigrants, excuse me, undocumented aliens, I would rather they spend their time getting drunk drivers off the road, preventing and solving violent crimes, etc., but please, once they have a person in custody, how much more of their resources does it take to turn them over to the feds?
To a certain extent, yes. That extent is related to the amount of support from superiors. In this case the mayor and council would be the final decision makers. There is actually a legal precedent for this in the unfunded manadte provisions. If the Federal Government issues a mandate to the states they have to provide the source of funding. Therefore there cannot be a mandate to do something the state or local government would have to fund solely from their tax base. The usual professional courtesy only applies unless it causes a problem for someone higher up in the local government who will be around after the feds are gone. Not much more, but enough to give them an "out" to do so. The bigger concern is really landscaping. The restrictions on businesses in Chapel Hill/Carrboro are really worse than Cary but it is not as noticed because they are so much smaller in size. A building permit will include the number and colors of all plantings so there will be no landscaping errors. Without the undocumented aliens this landscaping super plan would not be possible. There is also a lot of construction of residential units and again the workforce would be negatively impacted. Given there are many houses within the city limits which are being torn down in order to build bigger and better housing on the lots this would also impact that area of positive change. Who would want a house next door to be partially torn down and then have no workforce to continue the project.
Which brings us to the real reason we have such a major problem with illegal immigration. If the illegals were not here, how much would real wages have to increase to get the work force needed to do all that? Whose bottom line would be impacted? If you can get illegals to do the work for sub-minimum wage and zero benefits, you can take part of that increase in profits to make political contributions where it will do the most good, to ensure that the problem will receive lip service and not much more.
My son has some friends in the construction business now and I have some who were developers/general contractors a few years back. In both cases there are interactions with legal and probably illegal workers. The pay and benefits seemed to be the same for both for the sub-contractors but the willingness to work was significantly different. I do not know if this is representative for all cases but is supported by several anecdotal accounts.
There is not that much of an oversupply of workers from the information these people give. They still generally need more workers, but the quality of some of the legal workers is not that good. There is a definite problem with the unskilled and semi-skilled labor force and the source of that force. For example, one situation hired Canadian labor and those workers were on the job more than the local hired labor and they worked better when they were there as well. One gentleman pointed out that when he started in the business the workforce was mixed white/black (his terms) in the semi-skilled area and primarily black in the unskilled, but now the unskilled are primarily Hispanic and the semi-skilled are primarily black/Hispanic. I cannot say whether this is a trend, but I have noticed a similar situation in some of the local service sector industries and they are not paying any less than they were.
My guess would be that a lot of the services now found in the service industry would go away. The landscaping services, for example, cannot replace the workers since they are still looking for more workers, so they would cease to exist. Construction would slow down. All would become more expensive due to the laws of supply and demand, which would in turn affect the demand for the services. Eventually a new equilibrium would establish but without the level of services we see now. At least that is my opinion based solely on the anecdotal data I have, which may or may not be representative of these industries. There would probably be more smaller suppliers of one or two people doing enough of the smaller jobs to stay in business, but the companies that say contract to the Research Triangle Foundation for service in the common areas of the RTP would be hard pressed to find workers and thus have to raise their rates, lower their profit, and try to entice more workers in by increasing pay/benefits if that were even possible to do. Of course, there are a significant number of legal aliens that do this work, but any significant reduction in the work force would have a similar effect regardless of the source. This is only for non-critical service industries too.
The citizens of this country would be fine If all the illegal documented or undocumented aliens left this country tomorrow we would be fine. We always innovate, improvise, and adapt. The myth of illegal immigrants filling a need for hard workers that want to work is to make the greedy feel better. Their has to be an advantage or ulterior motive to hire an illegal immigrant, why else would somebody incur the risk of doing so. The fact that some cities are so called sanctuaries is easy to deal with. Cut off all state and federal funds until they elect to enforce the laws of this land. Durham, Chapel Hill, or the states of California, Texas, and Florida do not dictate the laws of the United States of America. If they take my tax dollars they should up hold the laws of the land. We have three branches of govenrnment. The legislative branch, executive branch, and the judicial branch. Chapel Hill is not included in any of these groups and all taxpayer dollars should cease to flow into that town until they adjust their methods.
Wonder why the good old U S of A comes to mind when I read this story? They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will leap out right away to escape the danger. But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant, and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling, the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late. The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes. This is a story that is used to illustrate how people might get themselves into terrible trouble. Its a warning to keep us paying attention not just to obvious threats but to more slowly developing ones.
I would only have to work one job in the construction industry instead of a day job in construction and 2 part time night jobs. And lets take this one hypothetical step farther. Lets say these illegals have a major education level, and they start taking the high priced jobs out there. I guarranty you they will be on the first bus home. The reason they aren't being deported is because their effect on the workforce does not hurt the wallets of those in power positions. Influx 100,000 illegals into the high priced tech jobs at RTP and you'll see a major change in deportation tactics. I have been in the construction industry for 30 years. I've watched as many good craftsman just gave up and left the industry due to the growing lack of raises, benifits and being able to converse in english on a jobsite. The last time I asked for a raise I was told, I deserve it, but, they could hire 2 latino's for the same money. What you people don't realize is that the homes you are buying are CRAP!!! There's no concern for quality in their work and the GC's are only thinking profit, so they don't care either. I recently worked for the #1 home builder in the U.S. as a warranty technician. I worked in north Raleigh on $300k and up homes. I went into one home ($430,000 home) and while inspecting a window casing, I leaned on the window and the whole wall bowed out. That's what you get from the work force you have now. Their motto, "A little putty and a little paint make an illegal what he ain't." The American Craftsmans motto, "Americans don't build America anymore."
I can't prove this But,there would be a major drop in crime,less traffic accidents,wouldn't just those two be wonderful
Really? Was construction not moving fast enough before illegal aliens came to take those jobs? If not, what makes you think it's going to slow down? Did you notice such costs going down as more illegals began working those jobs? If not, what makes you think such costs will go up when they leave? Yes...gosh forbid we receive the level of service we have now, where we often can't understand the broken english of many of those working jobs here in America. :roll:
If you remove a significant portion of the workforce you get that result. Just as new construction slows to a crawl after a hurricane so would it and all other construction after losing the portion of the workforce. It is called market forces. There will be those who will pay a premium to get the work done and that will set the spiral upward, just as it did after the hurricanes when there was more work than workers. We were building a new house when Fran hit and it extended the schedule a good two months and cost about 5% more to get the job finished. It is even harder trying to understand a person who is not there is it not?
You are kidding, right? Surely you are able to discern the difference between the effects of a hurricane and the effects of getting rid of excess workers who accept lower pay. Effects of a hurricane on construction include: Scarcity of construction supplies Scarcity of construction equipment Scarcity of local workers due to lack of housing in the immediate area. New construction will slow down because resources are being used to rebuild and repair. Effects of ridding the area of illegal workers on construction include: Those American workers who have been priced out of their trade will once again be in demand and will fill the vacancies left by the deported illegals. The American workers will demand fair pay for their skills, and the contractors will pay those wages in order to get the work done. The contractors bottom line will be less. They will not be able to raise their prices to try to keep the same profit made during the time the illegals worked, because they know that to do so would cause reduced sales in new homes. New home sales will not decline, because there is nothing to cause it to decline. The contractors will make less...but they will still make a profit. Why do I care that I no longer have to try to understand an illegal worker? The American construction worker will be right there to take the job, and I can understand him. So your question makes no sense.
I do and I know the definition of "excess" indicates an oversupply which would mean there would be no job openings now, but there are still people in the construction industry looking for workers today even with a slight slow down in new construction. When we were building, we had the supplies on site, no other equipment was needed, and there was not only no lack of local housing there was an influx of new workers. That only leaves the worker resources being used for repair and rebuilding because that created more profit than new construction just as I stated. Thank you for finally agreeing with the simple truth. Some nice assumptions, but assumptions none the less. The pool of workers to fill the vacancies is sitting where while they wait? Of course this assumes an indetermined period of time, possibly decades will do as there is a significant ripple potential. What percentage of the profit will be lost? Therefore how profitable will it be to remain and how will there not be an effort to save money elsewhere? It is historically proven that if there is insufficient profit either there is no service provided or there is some cutting of corners to create the profit. Pure economics on the part of the industry. If there is a lower supply there will be a higher cost coming from market corrections. If makes no sense because you assume much and seem to understand little. How many construction workers will you have reason to communicate on a daily basis? None? Some? A lot? Unless the answer is not "none" the point of communication is moot for you. I might ask where this vast supply of unemployed Americans is hiding. As the unemployment rate is near the level of what is statistically all of the employable population, to remove a significant portion of the workforce would seem to have more dire effects than you indicate. Of course, there would be some other service jobs being eliminated due to the loss of the customer base as well, but those would not all just happen to employ those with construction skills or even abilities. If they all did contain potential construction workers there would still be the delay as the workforce shifted.
http://www.housingzone.com/probuilder/article/CA6357023.html The study shows that 22 percent of carpenters and 32 percent of construction laborers were immigrants. The percentage of immigrant construction labor that is undocumented is tough to figure, says NAHB economist Michael Carliner. "A key to what percentage is illegal is what share is from Mexico," he says, "because Mexicans are more likely to be illegal. I've seen data that suggests the flow of illegal immigrants peaked between 1999 and 2002 and has been somewhat lower since. But nobody knows for sure. "The important point is, illegal immigrants working in construction are not just warm bodies," Carliner asserts. "They have significant skills that are in short supply in this country. What's surprising is how widespread dependence on immigrant labor is. "Even in places like Chicago and Birmingham, Ala., we see immigrants dominating the job site. That's a long way from the Mexican border. The government should recognize we need people who can work with hand tools as well as computers." http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003265139_imprices19.html Similarly, legal and illegal immigrants tend to cluster in specific industries, among them construction. Based on census data, Passell estimates that in construction specialties, illegal immigrants range from 20 percent of carpet, floor and tile installers to 28 percent of drywallers to 36 percent of insulation workers. Overall, about 14 percent of all workers in the construction industry are in the United States illegally, he says. How does all that illegal labor affect the price you pay for a new house? The National Association of Home Builders pegs labor's share of the cost of a new home at 20 to 25 percent. For a typical U.S. single-family home that sold for $298,412 in 2002, then, about $68,000 went for construction labor. If Passell's estimates are correct, around 14 percent of those workers would be illegal. But illegal workers generally are less skilled than legal ones, points out Barry Chiswick, an economist at the University of Illinois, Chicago, who has studied illegal immigration for decades. You're more likely to find illegal drywallers or painters, say, than illegal electricians or plumbers. Since higher-skilled workers earn more than less-skilled ones, Chiswick said, the "illegal share" of construction labor costs — and, by extension, the wages illegal workers receive — will be smaller than their numbers would suggest. But even if illegal workers make only half as much as legal workers, that would work out to about $5,000, or about 1.6 percent of that "typical" home's sale price. If the supply of illegal workers were cut off, wages for those low-skilled jobs presumably would have to rise enough to attract legal workers into them. If, hypothetically, wage levels rose by a third, that would either add around $1,600 to the cost of the typical house or shave half a percentage point off the builder's 12 percent average profit margin. "If I'm buying just one home, there's not that big an impact," Chiswick said. "But if I'm building a lot of homes and I can save a few thousand on each one.... " The question remains: why all the recent immigration? I believe that the answer lies to a large degree with the housing bubble in the United States. The normal number of housing starts is about one million per year, but housing starts have exceeded one million every year since the early 1990s. The housing bubble appeared in the wake of the bursting of the technology stock bubble and only began to unravel in 2006. Housing starts have already returned to normal levels, but are soon likely to go below normal levels. What does this have to do with illegal immigration? Immigrants, particularly illegal Mexican immigrants, have largely found jobs in industries associated with the housing bubble. Immigrants work at jobs in the construction, landscaping, and road construction industries. Employment in the construction industry alone is currently nearly two million jobs above trend (7.7 versus 5.9 million). Of course many of the illegal immigrants are not even counted in such statistics, but just take a look at residential, landscaping, and road construction sites and you are likely to find many non — English-speaking immigrants. Therefore immigrants have a powerful economic incentive to move to America — lavish government benefits plus good paying jobs that are the result of the housing bubble. The boom phase of the business cycle and bubbles naturally misallocate labor from one industry to another, and in the case of the housing bubble it has been to allocate labor to the construction, mortgage, and real estate industries with immigrants helping to fill the gaps in the construction industry.
