How Do You Fix A Bully?

Who do you think is allowed to make the decision of rather or not "reasonable force" was used, Wayne? It's the principal. The same principal that does not want an imbalance in his/her suspension ratios. That "reasonable force" phrase leaves a whole lot open for subjective reasoning, doesn't it? Very convenient. There is a reason the school board doesn't include a description of "reasonable force"...and the reason has nothing whatsoever to do with what's good for the kids.

If a child is attempting to get free from an attack, and scratches the other child(ren) in the process, then the victim is judged by the school administrators to be equally responsible.

How often do you think a child can get away from a student - or several students - who are holding the victim down, punching the victim, stomping the victim in the head....without scratching them or leaving some kind of mark on them?

Picture it in your head a moment. What would you do to escape such a situation?

Would you be calculating your moves to make sure you aren't scratching someone?

Would you be thinking, "I shouldn't try to pull his hands from my hair, because I might scratch him/her" ? Would you be worried about scratching or leaving a red mark on the other person?

No, I dare say you wouldn't. What seems to make sense on paper, isn't necessarily realistic.

 

You could not provide an iron cald definition of reasonable force for them could you?

If that were actually the case in all cases, but you are assuming one thing and I am without enough evidence to make such an assumption.

It would depend on the mark, where it was, how it was caused, and the information form any witnesses.

Except it is not on paper is it?

 

Excuse me?!?! :shock:

Are you telling me, Wayne...that unless a detrimental situation occurs in ALL cases, it doesn't matter that it happens in MANY cases? I suggest you think about that a minute.

And no, I'm not making assumptions. This is an issue I've been researching for some time. I spoken with many parents who have experienced that which I have described.

And just what experience have you had in such situations in our public schools, Wayne...to make such a statement?

In the cases I've seen, the placement of the mark hasn't seemed to matter at all. In one case, the perpetrator grabbed the victim by the hair and began pulling her by the hair. The victim, in extreme pain, reached back with her hands and tried to extract the bully's hands from her hair and scratched her in doing so. The victim was suspended for 5 days....same as the perpetrator.

In another case, the victim left a minor bruise on the perpetrators calf as a result of hitting him. In that case, the victim was being held down by 2 kids while the "bruised" bully repeatedly kicked him in the head. The victim's only defense was to hit the bully in the only place he could reach - which was the leg, in the hopes of hurting him enough that he would stop kicking.


Except it is not on paper is it?[/QUOTE]

Excuse me again? WHAT is not on paper?

 

Excuse me?!?! :shock:

Are you telling me, Wayne...that unless a detrimental situation occurs in ALL cases, it doesn't matter that it happens in MANY cases? I suggest you think about that a minute.

And no, I'm not making assumptions. This is an issue I've been researching for some time. I spoken with parents who have experienced that which I have described.

And just what experience have you had in such situations in our public schools, Wayne...to make such a statement?

In the cases I've seen, the placement of the mark hasn't seemed to matter at all. In one case, the perpetrator grabbed the victim by the hair and began pulling her by the hair. The victim, in extreme pain, reached back with her hands and tried to extract the bully's hands from her hair and scratched her in doing so. The victim was suspended for 5 days....same as the perpetrator.

In another case, the victim left a minor bruise on a perpetrators calf. In that case, the victim was being held down by 2 kids while another perpetrator repeatedly kicked him in the head. The victim's only defense was to hit the one that was kicking him, in the only place he could reach - which was the leg, in the hopes of hurting him enough that he would stop kicking.

Excuse me again? WHAT is not on paper?

 

You were complaining there was no definition of reasonable force and I asked if you could provide a legally defensible definition for them.

I have, but it seems that you may not. How many cases are you talking about, say in a percentage form of all cases in the county in a year? The information you provided sounded very anecdotal, but that may have jest been from the presentation.

I do not doubt that you have spoken with parents who believe they have experienced what you describe, but the fact it that parents are far from unbiased sources too.

Two boys through public education with a sginificant change in the school districts between their entering high school. Also speaking with more than a few parents, teachers, police officers, and students over those years. Not all discussions were in a positive situation.

All solely because of the marks I am sure. Same or different school? Same or different year?

The "rule" that a mark is proof of unreasonable force.

 

Amen, Ken.....and I am a peace, love and harmony-type person...but don't mess with my babies. Praise God one will graduate in June and that he was never bullied. One down, two to go.

 

I don't disagree with you, but to get him this far without incident is worth some praise. Plus, he's a good, responsible, hard-working, God-fearing young man (and, no, I'm not being fooled). We have been blessed.

 

No, I was complaining that they were using subjectivity when determining what is and isn't reasonable force. The school board has left the term open for interpretation, and that works very conveniently for the school.

Actually, I've thought about this more than you can imagine. When it comes to our children, Wayne...anecdotes matter. All children have the right to attend school without fear of physical harm, and when that right is violated -first by other children and then again by the school administrators, then it's a very real problem. Doesn't matter if it has happened to one child or fifty.

I've spoken to parents, I've read the witness statements (that is when the school will allow the parents to have a copy - often they don't), and I've read the suspension reports (another great area of spin).

Personally, I've witnessed the behavior of some of these kids while working at the schools over the years. I had a 7th grade boy tell me "F*** you" because I wouldn't let him have a free snack. I had a 5th grade girl get inches from my face and tell me to "get off" her playground. I had two 8th grade girls call me a "white b****" while chaperoning a field trip, because I told them to get back with the group and quit wandering off when we were walking downtown.

Did you know that some of this violence at one of our Wake Co. schools made it on Youtube.com? How proud we all should be.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIX89rz99y4

And if you haven't had the experiences that I'm speaking about, then good for you. But many parents have - and that is the problem. And sadly, it appears to be getting worse.

Different schools. As I mentioned, in the school bus case, the driver didn't report the fight. The victim's parents did so when they went to the school wanting to know what was going to be done to protect their child from the perpetrator in the future. When the parents left the school, they had been assured the issue would be addressed. It was later that day that the school called and said that their child was being suspended also for "fighting". When the parents questioned that, considering their child was the one that was beaten up, the school specifically cited the mark left on the other child.

I've also seen a case where the witness accounts mentioned that the bully pinned the victim up against the wall, and that the victim pushed the bully off of himself to try to get away. The suspension report stated only that the victim "pushed" the bully. See how easily the school administration can spin?

 

Thank you but he deserves the "pat on the back". It's not an easy world we live in. I think the key is letting them know that you are proud of them. I frequently ask why everyone can't just get along. I guess that would make life too easy. I DO feel like the issue of bullies in the school often gets swept under the rug. I have a friend whose son was threatened with a knife ("I'll cut you up if you tell that I have a knife")at Cleveland Middle School 5 years ago and the school never notified her. One of her son's friends mentioned it to her (4 days later)and when she called the school to get the details they were very vague and said they didn't feel the need to tell her since it was handled through the "proper channels". HA...the incident happened on the school bus and the other child lived down the street from them...still does. A lot could have happened in 4 days. Parents need to be kept informed by the school system since the child may be embarassed/scared to tell the parent.

 

Turtlepits,
Have we helped you AT ALL? How is the situation going? Your child has my prayers.
Mommy3

 

Yes and when asked to provide a legally defensible definition to replace the "subjective" determination you developed a case of "questionitis" ... If you can provide the basis for making the detemination objective you have a point, if you cannot do so you do not have a point becuase such a determination cannot be made purely objective.

It does if it is presented as a systemic problem instead of an anecdotal problem.

Assuming the parents were unbiased while the school system is not .... sounds like the basis for a circular argument to me.

None of this proves your point concerning a "hidden standard" or "double standard" in any way.

Yes, and it supports the claims you are making concerning the school system in what way?

Ok, the problem is violence in ths school, but how does that relate to the prior claims?

So the mark was cited as the sole reason for the suspension? I have seen quite a few altercations in school and have had discussions with my sons over even more and very few would be called a case where one person was attacked by another without provocation. Fewer would be considered a case where the one did not try to do more than just remove themself from the situation. There may be more, which I have not seen nor heard tell of, but there is enough to make me question where the truth lies between two different sets of descriptions.

Was the push hard enough to get away or was it harder than that? A point that would be the division point between reasonable and unreasonable force.

 

Well, get this, the kid who bullies my son on Friday hit a girl who was his same race (know I will hear about that) but, he had got suspended for 2 days Monday and Tuesday of this week for hitting her. Now, My son gets hit ALL the time by this kid and NEVER got suspended. Now that BLOWS ME AWAY! Now, it does seem racial. At least by that incident. Needless to say, my son came home a different kid yesterday. The teacher even said it was a GREAT day. Now that should tell them something. The bully was gone, son had NO problems. Imagine that! Now for the boy getting punished for hitting the girl and not my son just signifies the difference the school administrators deal with "different" children. I plan on taking legal actions against the school and staff! So, thanks to everyone and now I know I am not alone. Thanks guys!

 

You think it could have been the male/female factor rather than the race factor that made the difference, since the principal made the "boys will be boys" comment before? Either way, ALL the bullying by that kid needs to be stopped! Glad your son had a good day at school yesterday, hope he has a good one today too!!

 

AMEN!! Thanks guys and gals for ALL your input. It was very helpful!!

 

Thanks for the update. I will keep the prayers coming for your child and (hard as it is sometimes) I will pray for the bully to have his heart softened. Little bullies do become BIG bullies.

 

Absolutely! Schools don't take bullying seriously enough. I hate that they always put the onus on the victim to learn to "deal with it." The link posted by NCFOP way back on the second or third page of this thread should be required reading for school administrators.

I too am glad your son had a good day yesterday, and hope he has another good one today.

 

Although sometimes kids seem to think so!

Glad you're only "semi-disagreeing" with me, because I do think there is a responsibility on both sides. I agree that kids do need to learn to deal with a lot of things life will throw at them, and the younger they start learning that, the better. That said, a child should not be allowed to assault other children without consequences. The legal definition of assault includes any unauthorized touching, meaning shoving, bumping, etc., as well as hitting and punching. And it has been my experience with the schools my children and grandchildren have attended that teachers and school administrators do not want to deal with the problem, they just want to blame the victim.

My son did learn to defend himself against the bullies, and although he did serve some detention time for fighting, it was well worth it to put a stop to the bullying.

 

That's right,you have to learn control,,the control of the speed and power behind the punch to the bullys throat(don't want to do too much damage)
and the power behind the boot to the ribs,your child will be suspended for a couple of days but it will be worth it,bully will never mess with him again,

 

Turtlepits I am so glad to hear your son had a good day. I hope he has many more. I am sure if you talk to other parents in that school you will find out you are not alone by any means.