Ormly, I have some questions for you, if you don't mind. (I love it that we're able to discuss spiritual stuff on here right now without a whole bunch of "yelling and screaming" happening!) :-D Okay, so what denomination are you? What are your views on the rapture and the tribulation? Don't you think it is important to tell people about what is coming, and is probably closer than we all think? Why is the church SO ASLEEP when it comes to biblical prophecy? Why aren't we jumping up and down and warning people about the tribulation? Am I a complete lunatic for thinking that we should be? (Be honest...) :lol: TIA for your answers.
Can you respond to this: John 14:8-9 (ASV) 14:8 (ASV) Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? For sure, knowing the Father is a quest that will never end. Even in eternity, I believe we will continue to learn God, forever. There will no harp and cloud for those who seek Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. It will be intimacy and the quest for such intimacy begins now for those who have the revealtion of Jesus Christ; who seek to know Him. If it is a law, it is a law of Love. Is love what you offer by your disposition and conduct? By your disregard for your appearance in the presence of God? It is God you say you go to worship, isn't that so? If you say you honor him, should it not matter what form that honor takes in every regard? I'll bet you wouldn't show up at your wedding in cutoff jeans and flip-flops....What would that say to your new bride??? I'll also bet dollars to donuts you wouldn't be sucking on a soda while the preacher says words over you or whatever else is going on that demands honor and respect. Wake up!! It is respect for the House of God that is at issue here. Required?? How do you require Love? Yet it is something God must see from us when He looks upon us. There should never be sloppiness here! Yes and did you read God's instruction to them? If so, why would you suppose it would matter to God? What does His Holiness demand? Why couldn't they just go in to the Holy of Holies in beach garb? What would have slain them except His Holiness?! The outward appearance always expresses the inward expression whenever possible. It's always been that way and has only changed with the emergence of this new "bubble gum church" mentality. Quote: Indeed, they are "works of Grace" within one when one has a revelation of Jesus Christ. A many facited gift, I might add that you overlook. And what are the terms for sustaining it? Do you ever think about what God requires after He gives the gift? Indeed you are saved from something but what are you saved unto? Ever think about that? Ah, that's it and you can live like hell, is that right? If not, then make some distinctions cause all you are going to do is wear out your re-dedicator every Sunday night. Quote: Do you have a revelation of Him that such things are happening in your heart that they might be evidenced from your life? I'll bet your wife also knows. Quote: Are you not a preacher... Ah, then you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ? That might explain things.... I don't believe you meant to say that. Quote: Do you know Him sufficient not to be deceived by the re-inventing of His Son to be something He never intended Him to be. That's terrific! Then I have a brother! Lets get together and talk about our Father! Dress code?? Is that all that is being discussed here?? I am afraid you have revealed much more that can be addressed for rectification. Are you open for that? Quote: Oh, I see. You have been put upon and persuaded to believe the old ways are out. I never said either would but salvation isn't the issue here, becoming a son, is. Are seeking such for yourself or are just trying to hang on until heaven. Are you also a member of the "white knuckle club"? For sure, knowing the Father is a quest that will never end. Even in eternity, I believe we will continue to learn God, forever. There will no harp and cloud for those who seek Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. It will be intimacy and the quest for such intimacy begins now for those who have the revealtion of Jesus Christ; who seek to know Him. If it is a law, it is a law of Love. Is love what you offer by your disposition and conduct? By your disregard for your appearance in the presence of God? It is God you say you go to worship, isn't that so? If you say you honor him, should it not matter what form that honor takes in every regard? I'll bet you wouldn't show up at your wedding in cutoff jeans and flip-flops....What would that say to your new bride??? I'll also bet dollars to donuts you wouldn't be sucking on a soda while the preacher says words over you or whatever else is going on that demands honor and respect. Wake up!! It is respect for the House of God that is at issue here. Required?? How do you require Love? Yet it is something God must see from us when He looks upon us. There should never be sloppiness here! Yes and did you read God's instruction to them? If so, why would you suppose it would matter to God? What does His Holiness demand? Why couldn't they just go in to the Holy of Holies in beach garb? What would have slain them except His Holiness?! The outward appearance always expresses the inward expression whenever possible. It's always been that way and has only changed with the emergence of this new "bubble gum church" mentality. Quote: Indeed, they are "works of Grace" within one when one has a revelation of Jesus Christ. A many facited gift, I might add that you overlook. And what are the terms for sustaining it? Do you ever think about what God requires after He gives the gift? Indeed you are saved from something but what are you saved unto? Ever think about that? Ah, that's it and you can live like hell, is that right? If not, then make some distinctions cause all you are going to do is wear out your re-dedicator every Sunday night. Quote: Do you have a revelation of Him that such things are happening in your heart that they might be evidenced from your life? I'll bet your wife also knows. Quote: Are you not a preacher... Ah, then you are not a disciple of Jesus Christ? That might explain things.... I don't believe you meant to say that. Quote: Do you know Him sufficient not to be deceived by the re-inventing of His Son to be something He never intended Him to be. That's terrific! Then I have a brother! Lets get together and talk about our Father! Deception is nothing to be afraid of from me, my friend. I am afraid you have revealed much more that can be addressed for rectification other than a dress code.. Are you open for that? Quote: Oh, I see. You have been put upon and persuaded to believe the old ways are out. I never said either would but salvation isn't the issue here, becoming a son, is. Are seeking such for yourself or are just trying to hang on until heaven. Are you also a member of the "white knuckle club"?
He has shown himself to the disciples, but not the world. The 22nd verse says: Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?". In this same passage he also says: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these." Can you do greater miracles than Jesus? Name a few you have done that are greater than changing water into wine. I don't pretend to know what this means, but I don't feel ashamed because his disciples didn't know what it meant either. Not always. I'm not perfect. Appearances are for man alone. 1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." Just as you are. That is all He requires. Ormly, I have offered this to you more than once and you still don't see. Do you not understand what Jesus meant when he said "I desire mercy, not sacrifice"? He does not desire your fancy suit or your spit-shined shoes. Telling people otherwise is hindering non-Christians. That is exactly what Jesus warned the pharisees about. John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Sloppiness is in the eye of the beholder. It is self-centered man made diversion which has nothing to do with spiritual things. They could now. His holiness desires mercy, not sacrifice. We are free in Christ. No. Grace is not complicated. It is not many faceted. It is so simple even a child can have it. To say otherwise is to place a stumbling block in the path of others. There are none. I believe "once saved, always saved". We are called to do the best we can with the hand we are dealt. You can't possibly know whether you could do any better in someone else's shoes. It doesn't matter anyway. One sin is the same as 14 million. Trying to work your way into heaven means you have not understood the idea of grace, and you are working in vain. Nope. Only God knows my spirit. Same thing. There is only one goal. I'm an imperfect person living in the freedom of grace.
Josey, Before I respond to your post, may I ask if you believe redemption for man was God's Main-Orginal plan, from the beginning? To be clear: Was it His intention to redeem man first before ever beginning to accomplish His purposes in Christ? Was there a "Plan A", "Plan B" type of thing in God's thinking? I am assuming you already realise that all of creation is for the sake of Jesus Christ before asking you this. I am also assuming you know when the beginning was.
I don't believe sin was a part of God's original plan (plan A), therefore I don't believe redemption was a part of the plan either. When redemption became necessary, then God-in-the-flesh became necessary (plan B). Yes all of creation is for Christ, because God and Christ are the same. But I don't believe there was any other purpose in Christ coming to Earth except redemption. The beginning of the universe was the Big Bang, but God has no beginning and no end.
WHAT? The beginning of the universe was the Big Bang, but God has no beginning and no end. WHAT??? that makes no sense, you are here spitting out scripture and talking about all this stuff but you say it started with the big bang? I suppose you skipped over this verse right? Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Kind of hard to miss the very first verse in the bible especially if you are spitting other scripture out
Josey, what about Lucifer's sin, which was before the creation of man? Don't you think God, who knows everything, knew all along that man would give in to Satan's temptation to sin and would need a redeemer? You don't think He could be taken by surprise, do you?
BANG!!! I believe God knows all that is knowable, but not all that has not happened. If he created us knowing what we would do, we'd all be robots. Without free will, true love could not exist.
That is where our beliefs are very, very different then. I believe in an ALL knowing God. My God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. Otherwise, how would He be God?
Well, I believe it is safe to say then that Plan B, because of the need to redeem, was enacted to recover or restore to the original plan A, wouldn't you say? I mean it puts man back on track, correct? May I ask then what was God's intention for Adam, better yet, what was the reason for the first Adam if Jesus is looked upon as the second Adam? Surely Jesus didn't just come to earth just keep man from going to hell? He mentions the Kingdom of God over 100 times in His speaking. What's that all about? Though Jesus redeemed Adam, Adam wasn't created in need of redemption but wound up being in need of it. What then was Adam created for and had He not sinned what did God have in mind for Adam's race? I am not going to argue the beginning aside from what the scriptures have to say. Suffice to say that the beginning was before the world were created. Jesus and Paul speak of it that way. If we can agree on that much then we can begin to see that God had something in mind for His creation and had Adam eatened of the Tree of Life and not transgressed, the plan would have unfolded for Adam to become a divine-human as Jesus wound up being. Upon eating of the Tree of Life, which represents Christ, he would have received the same power that the man Jesus was indwelled with when He overcame in His wilderness experience. In Adam's case and upon his victory, if there had been one, he wouldn't have had to proceed to the cross. The 'physical' cross would have been unnecessary, though a Spiritual one always was, to bring Adam to his victory. God wanted Adam to surrender his rights back to Him. Adam didn't like that idea and in his own strength, succumbed to lust. He never got far enough in his understanding of the issues to realise what was at stake. Redemption should never be the starting point in our understanding of these issues. It was only plan "B".
Here are just a few verses inferring when the beginning was and one that infers when God knew what about anything. They should cause us to relate the whole deal back to His very Heart; the point in time when He first came into being.......whenever that was.. Ephesians 1:3-4 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 1 Peter 1:2 (KJV) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savoir Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Then He must have known beforehand; before Esau was born, that he would not have honored Him .... And Jacob would have?
So do I. But He has chosen not to know some things. He gave us free will because love cannot exist without it. Even God can't "make" someone love him. That would be coercion, not love. This free will represents an unknown even for God, but he chose it. Let me throw a wrench into the discussion here: I don't believe in a literal "Adam", so when I say Adam I mean "mankind". I've never heard this before. Surely he did. So God could experience love. Perfect fellowship. Perfect love. God didn't come into being. He has no beginning and no end. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/graham/303542_billy305.html Billy Graham: God had no beginning (just as He will have no end); He has always existed, and He always will.
You've never heard of Jesus referred to as the second Adam? (KJV)1Corinthians 15: 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
I guess it is safe to assume that aside from mans' need for redemption you have no idea what else God had in mind when He sent the very expression of Himself to earth to inhabit the body of a man? I ask this with sincerity and integrity and not to mock in anyway. I trust you understand my associating man's beginnings with God's....whenever that was, we can only speculate about and still be wrong?
Thanks...I am weary of community churches. There is no emphasis on a certain belief or am I nieve in saying that?
