"You're Ok, I'm Ok, everybodies Ok. Now please help us with our building program fund raising campaign". That has been my experience.
I don't know, predestination is something that really confuses me. All I know is when I start trying to understand predestination, I start feeling extremely humbled. HE chose me, even though I did nothing... nothing... to deserve to be chosen. However you describe that, or whatever you want to call it, it is so very humbling when you really stop to think about it. That, and the fact that I love Him now because He first loved me. Wow! How true is that?? If He had not pursued me, I would not have loved Him, that is for sure. Was it predestined that I would accept His love and gift of salvation? I guess so, even though I still don't fully understand it. :? I love listening to the apologetics teacher Ravi Zacharias (even though he talks WAY over my head at times (brilliant man!)) so I searched his website and found an article on predestination. It wasn't written by Ravi so it is a little easier for me to understand. :lol: http://www.rzim.org/resources/jttran.php?seqid=79 Also, this paragraph is in that article and it pertains to what you and Josey were discussing earlier.
We dont ask for help we say this is whats going on if you feel it is in your heart to give to the dream then thats between you and God and if you dont feel that its your duty then dont do it we dont handcuff you to the chair and steal your wallet. all about what in your heart and what you think God wants you to do
It has been my experience that the "new" churches are the ones who say explicitly "we're not here to ask for your money." They realize that many people have been turned away from the "old" churches because of that. That would also mean He pre-excluded others who had done nothing to deserve exclusion ...and a just God wouldn't do that. No, it wasn't. Matthew 13:18 & 19 Jesus said: "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. Jesus said the kingdom is like a farmer sowing seeds. Some fall on rocky soil and don't grow. With predestination, you are saying that God threw them on the rocky soil on purpose just to watch them die. I disagree. The parable of the sower shows that, because of the free will He gave us, He doesn't know who will accept his message and who won't. No. Please tell me.
I'm (almost) sorry to bring up an old topic from the previous thread but i was headed back from Smithfield today and saw the addition to C3. Gynormous comes to mind, also massive, titanic, tremendous, monstrous and insane. i saw the pictures on their website of course, but that doesn't do justice to this building's supremely huge size and complete lack of personality. It's just a huge steel frame, and when its completed it'll be wrapped in metal plates just like the current one is. what happened to church personality? Beautiful churches that gave you a hint of the awe awaiting you inside not by size, but by the art they felt moved to create in honor of their God? The RBC Center has more character than this gargantuan, and half the cubic feet. Maybe I'm just silly, but when i lived in Selma i went to this church called Edgerton, a beautiful old church with gorgeous Gothic architecture (until they put a hat on it, but thats a different story). When i was alone (or nearly alone) in that church i never felt alone; it always felt like someone else was there, like the building its self was alive and loved the people who entered it. I couldn't imagine feeling anything but lost in the titan of steel and more steel that C3 is creating in testimony to their God. Don't confuse this as a post saying "I wouldn't go to C3 because they didn't make their building pretty enough". In my eyes a church building is intended to be, beyond a gathering point, a tribute to your feelings for God. To me a church this big says that their relationship with God is very similar to a promoters relationship with a concert: The more butts you can get in the seats, the better; personal care is irrelevant, we've got crowds to move. That is my answer to the original question of the thread, troll posted or not; Attitude.
What is the difference between Methodist and Catholic? I could do researh on my own but wanted to get your version of it (anyone).
Always keep in mind that God's predestination; His pre-choice is NEVER arbitrary. If you know that He is all knowing there is never a reason why it should ever be, arbitrary. Don't ever be persuaded to the contrary. When the scripture says God choose us from the foundation of the earth it is because He saw us why back then. He also saw everyone else.
Let me be clear about something: I am not here to speak against a church organization. I only wish to present something I am for, i.e., the purpose of God as I see it in Jesus Christ, and His Church as an organism. Therefore, if what I see from scriptures run contrary to church organizations, how can I apologise? I am curious to know about the "dream" you mentioned? If it is to bring people to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ unto the born again experience that can only be found in Him, evidenced by the power of God in their lives unto the becoming a son unto the Father, then I stand with you. That is a very narrow way that few will walk. It is my choice because it is the way presented us from the His Word. That's minimum criteria for me.
As if that was the only reason?? I can't accept that. It is more that the old mainstream denominations are Spiritually dead. The narrowness of their message was/is without Pentecostal power and as a consequence, Life left them. How far can a form of Godliness without power sustain you? How many times do you need to hear the salvation message ---- after you consider yourself, saved? Not wishing to accept what they have denied; to repent, they began to embrace a more "seeker friendly" presentation of themselves to the world. Enter the present day CEO mentality to church organization that has worked well for corporations in the world; Peter Drucker, Bob Buford, etal. Listen as they downplay the miracles of God, if they mention them at all, to persuade away from the narrowness of the message of the only way acceptable unto God. Check out the authors who write the books offered up for you to read and for small group consensus meetings and see for yourself where these writers are coming from. Bible translations should also be reviewed in the same light. Eugene Peterson’s, “The Message”, along with others, will wind up the circular file cabinet, if you do. Who are these people with "fresh thinking"; these people presenting a “new paradigm”, “church model” that seems to work so well? Are they Christian or just “pied pipers of humanism”, re-inventing Jesus Christ for their own “purposes”? Are they of Christ or simply Deists, who can embrace any god, ergo, you are welcome? They full well know that the world hates Jesus Christ so they are compelled, snared to not speak of Him but in some generic sense if they are to prosper, and they will, as an organization. Though I am still listed as a member of such a church, I have not attended in years. People there had/have no knowledge and want none. The social agenda was sufficient to keep them coming back.,,,, when time permitted. I need more in my life than that. I can get “cold fries” down at Bo jangles. Below is a link that will greatly benefit those who desire to have answers to this great phenomenon. http://inthenameofpurpose.org/note.htm
When I see churches of that size and population the first thing I think of is religious cult. Not saying it will happen again but I would never like to see something along the lines of Jim Jones or Waco happening again. I have never been to C3 but my daughter has and she says the kids there are brainwashed. We know attend a church on 50 hwy. twitch
After speaking with someone who goes to C3, I think that's what you would find there. It doesn't matter what kind a music you use, its the message that counts. It doesn't matter whether you sit on chairs in a steel building, or pews in a cathedral. The church is not made of tangible objects. www.inthenameofpurpose.org - I just read all I found on this website. To me its just much ado about nothing. "The sky is falling". Christianity has gone through many changes throughout its existence, and will go through many more. Beware of people claiming to know the one and only "truth". Truth is not something you can beat into the heads of other people with a King James Bible while wearing a suit and tie. The Kingdom of God is not an exclusive club that requires a password and a secret handshake. Its doors are open for anyone who wants to come in. Christianity is a personally revealed faith, not a provable "truth". Yes there is this: Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. But there is also this: Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
Indeed. The true Church is the Body of Christ. The corporate Body of Christ are ALL born again of the Holy Ghost, baptised by Jesus Christ into Himself. Any other form of church is not His Church. If anyone is a Disciple of Jesus Christ going to "church" wouldn't be about going to hear a message about Jesus Christ but rather to worship Him in the beauty of Holiness. That is not arguable. Apparently then, you don't know Jesus Christ to make good distinctions concerning His Gospel. That's too bad....and dangerous. Ah, we are back to the suit and tie, are we? Seems maybe you just don't like to dress for the occasion and the occasion has seen fit to dumb itself down to accomodate your lack of respect and honor for the Lord. Again, that is too bad... and dangerous. Ergo, the message can't be much. Again, you are wrong. Not knowing your Bible is going to be your downfall. "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of God/Heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force." Matthew 11:12 What does Jesus mean by that, Josey? Should I guess which verse you've torn out of your Bible? When the door is opened what do people find in your church, Josey, Christ or 10 step self-help programs; humanistic reasoning and group hugs? I think a good Bible study at Bisquitville is in order.
HMMM? I dont understand people who say "that church is too big".... where in the bible does it say that a church has to be small.. As long people are hearing the word of god who cares what size it is. You can go to a smaller church if you want and I can go to a big church but there is no reason to say big church's are cults or anything. I say go for it big churchs are great, small churches are great too, but big churches broke out of the " us 4 and no more" and the "holy huddle" mind set. All it comes down to is that people are hearing the word of God. IT just blows my mind that supposed "christian's" who go to other church's talk junk about bigger, smaller churches any other church. Which is judging other church's when we should take care of each other beacue the church is God's bride.
Hmmm? Is this all this discussion sez's to you? Big church-little church?? However, since you mention the word of God being preached in your church, can you speak of what the "word of God" is that is being preached where you attend? In fact can you even remember, after 5 mins., what was spoken on any given Sunday?.... I'll bet it wasn't any different from the previous Sundays message or last months message.
Ormly it's obvious you are a man with conviction. But there is no need to challenge anothers faith and belief because they can't quote scripture verbatim or can articulate thier beliefs as well as you. Faith is what it is. Knowing the Bible and believing the Bible are two different things. I will not question anothers faith simply because it is between them and God. But if they want to know about my personal relationship with Jesus I will be more than happy to fill them in. It seems this is getting a little personal and I hope you don't think I was attacking you. Just thought it was needed. Every Christian has a different interpretation of the way they are supposed to live. Churches do matter. Size does not. When I go to church I do wear a suit. Simply because I know I am going to the house of the Lord. Out of reverence, respect, and my faith I feel it is the right thing to do. That is why the best clothes we wear are called Sunday clothes. Simple yes. Effective? Extremely.:-D
If you don't.....Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman who need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [2 Timothy 2:15] What will keep your understanding of the issues on track.. a "feel good" service? If, "to each his own", is OK with you, what is to keep you from being deceived? Ignorance in this is not bliss, I can assure you. Ignorance can only mean destruction, especially if it is willful ignorance. I believe I would rather step in front of somebody who walking to the edge of the cliff than walk with them. In order to do that one must have sufficient knowledge of the Bible, don't you suppose? ..or do you think just any little bit of knowledge is OK? And if you say you have faith I have to ask, faith in what?
Ormly, I sent you a PM, did you get it? If so, when you click on the link I provided, be sure to click on "Sermons" and listen to the March 25th message. It's a great example of what you'll hear in our church.
My point was knowing the words of the Bible and knowing the meaning of the words of the Bible are two different things. The Bible is extremely complex so it's comprehension can be challenging. It's important to remember that a strong conviction like yours is awesome. But simply put if someone else is not able to articulate their thoughts as well as you can does not mean they do not understand or believe differently. The Bible also says to "Love thy Neighbor" and Judge less ye be judged. I could not tell you where that comes form in the Bible nor if it is the exact phrasing. But I understand what it means. It may be incorrect in your eyes by an analytical point of view but Theoretical I get it. Thanks for the debate.
