Too complex?? Is that the reason you use as an excuse for not reading it? It not from conviction I speak but rather, passion. I have a revelation of Jesus Christ. I am born again. Why should it be different for me than you, or anyone else? Is He not the same God who rewards those who diligently seek Him? Won't He choose us to know Him if we choose Him from a desire to know Him? This is not rocket science nor is the Bible to complex it can't be understood by the everyday human mind. I am not seminary educated. Words mean something and a message is usually the thing conveyed. I don't see where articulation in conveying the message by anyone has been a problem. I have well understood what is being conveyed to me. No one seems to making corrections to what they have written. I can only assume they say what they mean and mean what they say. In that, I am alarmed and you are simply responding to sincere concern on my part. Thank you. Why not?? Before that it reads we are to Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Is what I am presenting to others, judging/convicting you? I am not responsible for that. I don't know about that. Here is what you lack by not studying: "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:15-16 (KJV) 2:15 (KJV) Let me emphasize that we are supposed to have the Mind of Christ. I strive for His Mind? Striving for His Mind is to strive for the entering of His Kingdom. Are you striving to enter it. If not not, by what do you judge me? Thank you, however, debate isn't what this should be about. Discovery of Truth, should be. I am not here to quarrel. Don't want to.
This whole thread is UNBELIEVABLE. You know, you don't seem very christian to me orly or whatever your name is. Anyone can cut and paste the bible. You are judging other churches. Who do you think you are? It is a church for crying out loud. Believe the old hymns and old music if that is what you think gets you in heaven. Just remember, all this judging of other churches, God is watching you. I just thank God there is a church there for people to enjoy. Oh, doesn't your church ask for "tides and offerings" why is it different at your church than at c3? The plate goes around no matter where you go. And you did make it a Big church, little church thing..... Everyone has a different outlook on the bible, what you believe another may see it in a different way. It is okay. Chill. Unless you are the one who wrote the Bible. Brainwashing kids at C3. COMEEE ONNNNN! Just wow. I tried to be quiet but this thread is upsetting. UGHHHHHHH.
I really don't see it as a quarel. I see it more as a search for compromise when it comes to faith. I will not compromise my faith and do not expect you to. In the end we will still need to pray and have a closer walk.
It's Ormly -- with a "m". Sure they can. All they need is Bible program. There are some one on the net that are quite helpful. Have you ever used any of them? Did I name any churches? I have determined to use a broad brush. If I am hitting too close to home I must be saying something that affects you. That's good. A born again Christian, concerned for the souls of men, especially in my neighborhood. Doesn't your church speak of the need to be born again? You know if you even want to see the kingdom, never mind entering it, you must be born again? You do know that, I suppose? Heres a cut and paste verse: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". John 3:3 (KJV) You know that verse, I'm sure. Where? Which one? There are so many to choose from. I don't believe I wrote that at all. If you have been reading, for accuracy, all I have posted, you would know that. So lets not be dishonest and then call me unchristian, OK? Indeed, I often wonder if that is the reason I am here on this forum. Wow! What a place to present His Word! So many who don't know what the issues are in Christ. So many who think it is all about a feel good message about Christ, maybe getting changed or not by it or some such thing that doesn't offend anyone, that really doesn't matter anyway, and then hanging on til you die, hoping that heaven awaits you; believing it does because everyone else around you has bought into such a false assurance.. Here's another "cut and paste": "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV) No, my church doesn't ask for "tides". Not in the least. You choose to see it that way. No reason why everyone should see the Bible differently; not on the essentials..... And I'll just bet that you don't even know what they are. Who says it is OK, You? Satan? Satan would say such a thing. However, you should question whether or not you should, doncha think?
Great discussions happening here I think it is great that everyone is discussing their thoughts/beliefs about God and the Bible in this forum. I would like to throw in a couple thoughts from my experiences with church. Please try and read with an open mind and not dissect my every word or phrase. I'm not pushing any agendas or trying to convert anyone over to my way of thinking. I'm just adding my ingredients to the mix. Big Church/Little Church: I have been an active part of three churches through-out my life (I've checked out many different sizes and styles of church). I have been a part of a church plant/small church (that ultimately didn't make it), a medium sized church and now what I would call a large church. Everyone knows there is no perfect church. Each good church is still growing in leadership skills, understanding on how to effectively minister to the people that attend or visit, some going through building programs, and also growing in how they worship and present the Gospel. Each church has their weaknesses and their strengths. Each good church is committed to preaching the Gospel and to be a more loving and giving church (both to the people who attend/visit and the community around them). C3 is in the midst of a serious building program, so yes there may be requests for people to pray about getting involved with the Dream. But the Dream is not solely the building being built. It’s about how can we make room for those that want to come to find, meet, know and worship God. One of the biggest needs we have is more space for the children. We are maxed out in what we can offer for the children. I'm excited to be a part of a church that puts so much emphasis on the younger generation and gives them the same resources as they would for the adults. Some churches, the kid’s services are given the left-overs after the adults get the nice new seats, sounds system, carpet, building, ect... The other thing that I really like about the Dream, is that it is more than just giving financially, its also about serving. As more people come and as more services are needed, it provides more opportunities for people to serve in church. I know several awesome families that have said they never thought they would be involved in ministry. They thought that only really "spiritual" people were in ministry. I've shared with them that God uses everyday people to change lives everyday. But for those people that didn't think God could use them, the Dream has provided an opportunity for them to see themselves bigger than they are - as God sees them. God wants to use all of us to touch those around in us in some way, and for those around us to touch our lives as well. Dress Code: I've been to churches that the majority of the people dressed in their best. Dress to impress. And I've been to churches where the majority of the people wore jeans to church. Of the two churches, both churches made it comfortable enough so that if you want to dress up, then awesome, and if you want to dress down, then awesome. God looks at the heart and man looks at the outward. I've seen well dressed people in church smiling and worshiping like everyone else, they look like they have everything together on the inside, but truth be told their marriage is a wreck, their finances are a mess, their kids all over the place. And I've seen some young people come in with their wild hair, piercings, looks like trouble, but some of them have the tenderest heart for God and their passion/love for God puts some veteran Christians to shame. The dress code we should be worried about as parents, at both dress up and dress down churches, is how our teenage girls are dressing. Victoria doesn't have a secret anymore, the way some girls dress. For guys it’s a little easier because they aren't looked at from a physical stand point but we don't need to see anyone's underwear in church. Connection at any Church: Can anyone remember what it was like starting the new school year at a new school where you don't know anybody? I had this experience several times through-out my life. It can be very intimidating. The same can be experienced at any size church you go to. I know when we have visited other churches it felt a little intimidating at first. It’s important that everyone in the church take responsibility to look for new people and welcome them. It’s not the staff’s job alone to welcome everyone. We all should try and remember how uncomfortable it is to go into a new place a feel like you're alone, regardless of the number of people around you. Also, as church gets bigger it has to also get smaller. As a church grows, obviously the amount of time each person can spend with the Pastor gets tougher. This is hard for Pastors to deal with because almost every Pastor loves spending time with the people. That’s why you will see small groups at a lot of churches. These smaller groups allow for more personal relationship building connections to be formed and more personal ministry can happen as well. I would never speak to the whole church about my struggles or faith questions. But in a small group environment, with people I can get to know and trust, I will open up about my marriage, my family, my work, my faith, etc... In the group, we can pray and encourage one another. As a group we can study God's Word and discuss how we can practically apply that to our marriages, our families, our jobs, our relationship with God, ect... If someone is sick from our group, the leaders inform the staff so they can be praying but we as a group go visit and help the person in need. I don't need my Pastor to visit me every time I'm sick. Each small group is a part of and is a representative of the bigger group. So if my small group performs an outreach in our neighborhood, it’s the same as C3 doing the outreach. With 5 services, it’s hard to get to know people on a personal level, but with small groups it allows people to get that personal attention. If you've tried a small group that you didn't feel comfortable with, then find another one. The first one we went to, it wasn't a right fit for us with where we are at in our lives. So we tried another group that had younger families that were in the same stage of life as we were. In closing (some are applauding while others are saying "finally")... LOL! Life is a journey, enjoy it, and don’t take yourself too seriously. We all make mistakes, learn from them, move forward and try not to do it again. Because the church is made of people, churches will make mistakes, they aren't going to make everyone happy and some will like one style and others will not. Remember we are all in the same family. Let's rejoice in each churches success and let's come together with those churches or people that are struggling. When we stop looking solely at ourselves and our problems, and we start helping each other, that's when "The Church" will begin to make a difference again and we'll start seeing people coming back to God. My prayer is that God would change me and help me to be - more like Him - rather than - doing more for him -. As I become more like him, the more I will naturally do for him. Remember Love God, Love Life and Love People. Phil 4:2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. (churches disagreeing with each other? Hard to imagine.) Phil 4:4-9 4Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (I know I need to be more gentle) 8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. (God help me to focus on the good things You are doing in “Your Church" – the collection of all Christians through-out the world)
Thanks Server. Once we start on the wrong path of compromise the absolutes of Christ can be "compromised" away. I won't do that.
Why!!?? Consider that desensitising just hasn't reached you yet. Give it another year or two. You will find you have mellowed out by then. I have already seen the bare middrifts, exposed thongs and the sex tattoos on their backs....And no one raises concerns about the lack of conviction or teaching that might have an effect. Buts that's church, isn't it?
It starts at home The desensitising is a great point. The key point in that statement is "as parents". It has to start at home. Church can teach on why its not appropriate but it does not replace the responsibility of the parent to teach it to their kids and reinforce it at home. The young person may get 2 hours of church a week, that leaves the rest of the time to other influences. It my responsibility to teach and raise my child in God's ways and what's appropriate and what's not.
Binary, In all that you wrote, that I read, I was looking for you to mentiion the need for one to be born again; that Jesus Christ was the way to the Father; the only way and that ALL centers in Him and for His sake. That God has a plan for the one who loves Him with all their heart that transcends all else, including the "felt needs" of others. I didn't read any of that from you. In fact the name of Jesus Christ is absent from your post. Why should anyone believe your church is about Him and not believe it is simply serving itself and eating people in the process?
Nor should it be the churches responsibility, if it is the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church is not a daycare center.
For me those things are what makes a church a church. But yes we 100% believe in salvation, Jesus is "The Way", "The Truth" and "The Life" and no comes to God except through Jesus. God definately has a plan for each of our lives. His word states that He has good plans for us, and that He will complete the good work that He began in us - hence the journey. God first loved us. While we sinners/seperated from God, He died for us. We can love God and other much because He has forgiven all our sins. Church is about seeing lives changed (Christians and Non-Christians) and worshiping and growing closer to God.
But that isn't what the Lord said it was to be about. If that was just my opinion then you might have a chance at persuading me to change it. Since few only have opinions about the scriptures, I'm afraid that is what is happening today as we see the "consensus" breeding become a snare. People are persuaded to change their "opinions" to embrace some "middle ground" that soon becomes the next absolute to bring about control over mans mind. "It is written", Jesus would say and "Upon this Rock of revelation I will build my Church". What is the revelation but He, Himself and all He desires to accomplish with His new Body. Is the body you speak of, His Body? If not, why not? It call His Church; His Bride. Brides become intimate with the Bridgegroom. This is narrow, to be sure. However, marriage is given as an example of the intimacy He seeks with us. Then you should have said as much. Are you now conditioned not to be so narrow lest you offend someone, perhaps an unbeliever? Not saying it at all points up where the real emphasis of your church lies... With people, not God; felt needs of others and not the needs of God unto sonship in the Father and joint-heirship in Christ. Indeed, can we be more specific about His plans for us and how they are to accomplished by attending your church? What is His word concerning His plan for us? BTW, Who is "us" who do you include when you say "us"? What is the good work He began in "us" that can be even begin to be completed if there is no instruction given that God wants "us" intimate with Him? How can He teach me if I am not and have no desire to be intimate with Him? If i am a follower, what am I following? No, who am I following? They are nice words, however, how does one make the reality of them an actuality in their life? Something that has been revealed to the inside of me to be`something that is manifested on the outside of me? Not in the least, my friend. Church [Sunday service] is about believers comiing together and worshipping God in the beauty of His Holiness. I fail to see that in todays contemporary church organizations. There should be nothing of the world in His sanctuary. No rock and roll. No entertainment, for the people. No improper dress exhibitions from those already initiated into the church. Definitely no sloppiness and irreverance from the pulpit/leadership. Where is the example for holiness unto God to be found, if not in the church on Sunday morn? You mention Christians and non-Christians worshipping God. Tell me, how can they worship God together? How can non-Christians worship God at all? When attempted, who has to give in, to appease, so as not to offend? Can God be pleased with that? Did Jesus EVER move in that direction?? Or did He let yes be and His no be no, no matter who it offended? And I don't mean to offend you in any from what I have posted.. I think I do hear your heart.
What occasion? Worshiping and praising God should be an every-day event. :shock: What?! My lack of respect? I will say this again for the umpteenth time - You cannot show respect to God by the clothes you wear. Does a three-piece suit show more respect than a two-piece suit. No, that's just silly. Fanciness in clothing is the invention of man. God doesn't look upon the outward man. He only looks upon the inward man. Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. ...As a Jehovah's Witness.
So who is the one closed minded here, you or me? FWIW, I don't believe myself to be fundamentalist..but on second thought, after reading your cut and paste, I may be..... but my beliefs go back further because the group you have up can't move off the issue of redemption and making heaven the goal in the life of a Christian.
Indeed, it should, but I don't want to look at your dusty crummy appearance while you are teaching me about Jesus and then have you tell me how you love God, especially when I know you can afford to present yourself more honorably in His presence. Something is wrong with that picture that inhibits my worship. You have now become, in mind, a distraction that needs correction. You can't or you won't. Here's a cut and paste for you to consider when thinking about doing it "Your way": "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:11-13 (KJV) Gee, I wonder why the poor fellow got tossed out? Want to venture a guess? No. But it does show more respect than cut offs and beach sandals. You really don't want to argue that, do you. If you were homeless off the street, coudn't agree more. But you are without excuse. Put your wedding garment on or go home. That would be my word to you, if I was leadership. You wouldn't be a leader, someone of influence, in my church. Nor will I attend a church that condones your approach to my Lord, your lack of respect for His Holiness... in His sanctuary. Sure. And I guess you only wish to re-inforce your mis-quote on Sunday meeting time.
Hey Ormly... over here please! Do you mind answering just one of the questions that I asked way back on page 9? Thanks!!
