That would be Pottsylvania. It's where Boris and Natasha were from. Spotsylvania County really exists.
Tradition sir, Tradition. I don't know where they got those plates - they had them forever and they have men who carry them around, and others hold/pass them over the little old ladies in the pews. Buckets are tacky, and greedy IMO. Yes, Spotsylvania County does in fact exist - quite alot of Civil War activity took place there. We just went up a few weeks ago. I stood where Stonewall was when he got shot, visited the grave of his amputated arm, and even the house where he died. And the road to Richmond where the Battle of Fredericksburg took place, that was pretty cool too. But, back to our regularly scheduled bashing.
a bucket? they really pass around a bucket??? im sorry but that is funny is this the same church that has the debit card machines that you can use too? seems like i either heard or read it somewhere??
Now that really is rediculous. I can't see any church resorting to that. Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read......not even from me.......and especially not from LI-bratz.
Would you mind explaining that? I just never heard it before, and I haven't been in a church that uses a bucket. Just curious.
got his from a dear friend, just a thought and like to share with you all... ====================================================== A Shocking “Confession” from Willow Creek Community Church Bob Burney "Bob Burney Live," WRFD Columbus, Ohio October 30, 2007 If you are older than 40 the name Benjamin Spock is more than familiar. It was Spock that told an entire generation of parents to take it easy, don’t discipline your children and allow them to express themselves. Discipline, he told us, would warp a child’s fragile ego. Millions followed this guru of child development and he remained unchallenged among child rearing professionals. However, before his death Dr. Spock made an amazing discovery: he was wrong. In fact, he said: We have reared a generation of brats. Parents aren't firm enough with their children for fear of losing their love or incurring their resentment. This is a cruel deprivation that we professionals have imposed on mothers and fathers. Of course, we did it with the best of intentions. We didn't realize until it was too late how our know-it-all attitude was undermining the self assurance of parents. Something just as momentous, in my opinion, just happened in the evangelical community. For most of a generation evangelicals have been romanced by the “seeker sensitive” movement spawned by Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. The guru of this movement is Bill Hybels. He and others have been telling us for decades to throw out everything we have previously thought and been taught about church growth and replace it with a new paradigm, a new way to do ministry. Perhaps inadvertently, with this “new wave” of ministry came a de-emphasis on taking personal responsibility for Bible study combined with an emphasis on felt-needs based “programs” and slick marketing. The size of the crowd rather than the depth of the heart determined success. If the crowd was large then surely God was blessing the ministry. Churches were built by demographic studies, professional strategists, marketing research, meeting “felt needs” and sermons consistent with these techniques. We were told that preaching was out, relevance was in. Doctrine didn’t matter nearly as much as innovation. If it wasn’t “cutting edge” and consumer friendly it was doomed. The mention of sin, salvation and sanctification were taboo and replaced by Starbucks, strategy and sensitivity. Thousands of pastors hung on every word that emanated from the lips of the church growth experts. Satellite seminars were packed with hungry church leaders learning the latest way to “do church.” The promise was clear: thousands of people and millions of dollars couldn’t be wrong. Forget what people need, give them what they want. How can you argue with the numbers? If you dared to challenge the “experts” you were immediately labeled as a “traditionalist,” a throwback to the 50s, a stubborn dinosaur unwilling to change with the times. All that changed recently. Willow Creek has released the results of a multi-year study on the effectiveness of their programs and philosophy of ministry. The study’s findings are in a new book titled Reveal: Where Are You?, co-authored by Cally Parkinson and Greg Hawkins, executive pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Hybels himself called the findings “earth shaking,” “ground breaking” and “mind blowing.” And no wonder: it seems that the “experts” were wrong. The report reveals that most of what they have been doing for these many years and what they have taught millions of others to do is not producing solid disciples of Jesus Christ. Numbers yes, but not disciples. It gets worse. Hybels laments: Some of the stuff that we have put millions of dollars into thinking it would really help our people grow and develop spiritually, when the data actually came back it wasn’t helping people that much. Other things that we didn’t put that much money into and didn’t put much staff against is stuff our people are crying out for. If you simply want a crowd, the “seeker sensitive” model produces results. If you want solid, sincere, mature followers of Christ, it’s a bust. In a shocking confession, Hybels states: We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between services, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own. Incredibly, the guru of church growth now tells us that people need to be reading their bibles and taking responsibility for their spiritual growth. Just as Spock’s “mistake” was no minor error, so the error of the seeker sensitive movement is monumental in its scope. The foundation of thousands of American churches is now discovered to be mere sand. The one individual who has had perhaps the greatest influence on the American church in our generation has now admitted his philosophy of ministry, in large part, was a “mistake.” The extent of this error defies measurement. Perhaps the most shocking thing of all in this revelation coming out of Willow Creek is in a summary statement by Greg Hawkins: Our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church. That we take out a clean sheet of paper and we rethink all of our old assumptions. Replace it with new insights. Insights that are informed by research and rooted in Scripture. Our dream is really to discover what God is doing and how he’s asking us to transform this planet. Isn’t that what we were told when this whole seeker-sensitive thing started? The church growth gurus again want to throw away their old assumptions and “take out a clean sheet of paper” and, presumably, come up with a new paradigm for ministry. Should this be encouraging? Please note that “rooted in Scripture” still follows “rethink,” “new insights” and “informed research.” Someone, it appears, still might not get it. Unless there is a return to simple biblical (and relevant) principles, a new faulty scheme will replace the existing one and another generation will follow along as the latest piper plays. What we should find encouraging, at least, in this “confession” coming from the highest ranks of the Willow Creek Association is that they are coming to realize that their existing “model” does not help people grow into mature followers of Jesus Christ. Given the massive influence this organization has on the American church today, let us pray that God would be pleased to put structures in place at Willow Creek that foster not mere numeric growth, but growth in grace. Bob Burney is Salem Communications’ award-winning host of Bob Burney Live, heard weekday afternoons on WRFD-AM 880 in Columbus, Ohio. Contact Bob at bob@wrfd.com
I wish Ready were here. I really want to know, What Would Jesus Claim? How is it considered "charity" ? Real charity, anonymous with nothing expected in return, when you file for a credit on your taxes??? And is this what Jesus had in mind?
And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: or thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Mark 12:14-17
So Caesar wanted power & recognition (and Cleopatra!!) and God wanted love, faith, service, etc? So to appease Caesar they put his face on a coin, and say "okaaay... you're the emporer" KDs - So, if I give my money to the church, and Uncle Sam gives it back to me, is it really *me* giving to the church or is it Uncle Sam? Do I give that money back to the church again, or do I take my family to Hawaii? Is this an example of giving to the church, and putting the rest in God's hands - letting him take care of you? Is that then saying that Uncle Sam gives the money back, but because God had a hand in our tax code?
Seems like I said something along those lines a few pages back. I also added, if it's Uncle Sam, then that means that everyone, whether they like it or not, is actually donating.
Pretty much so. And, when I donated to the United Nazi College Fund (an example charity), and then claimed it on my taxes, that means that you as a tax payer (whether you like it or not) also donated 1/millionth of my donation to this charity. Frightening, idnit?
