Makes me ashamed to be from Johnston County

Well put!

 

if the book is included in curriculum, how can my child avoid it? even if i complain and get him an alternative book, everyone else is talking about it, it's being discussed and studied in classes. again, you can't unring a bell.

with regard to who chooses and decides and the slippery slope, again, i go back to the representatives elected by "the collective". that's the way it works. we elect them to make these decisions for us. that makes it as fair and equitable as possible for everybody to have a say. who else should decide other than the community? individuals? should we have 2200 different curricula for 2200 different students in a particular high school? there has to be a standard. the method for making that decision is to elect representatives to speak for us. there will almost always be some in the middle that don't agree. there will always be a few who can't be totally satisfied. but we have to take the average of opinion in a given community to identify the line. if we agree on 98% of books, that 2 percent in the middle is where the line has to be drawn. and that small percentage is where we are in this discussion, i believe.

put hustler on one end, and see spot run on the other. we can both agree that they are examples of the extremes. it's the very middle ground, those things that are borderline and that draw vociferous opinions from both sides that we are discussing here. again, i think we would agree that hustler does not belong in a high school library or curriculum. does that put us on a slippery slope? what if there are a few parents in the county who don't mind if their kid reads hustler? does that mean that because a very few approve that the rest of us are forced to accept it? are there not just some things that don't belong in a setting like school? not banned from the community, just restricted from the school? as you say, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and if the line does not meet with overall community standards and ideas, the representatives who draw that line will be removed via the election process. or at least that's the way it's supposed to work...

re: the bible. it's not being taught in schools, is it? even as a piece of literature? it has been removed from school libraries and curriculum, but that certainly does not affect your ability to expose your child to the bible and its teachings. however, it does not force exposure on anyone who does not want to be exposed to it.

and, claytonsassy, i appreciate the "teachable moment" as well, it's being forced to confront certain issues before i or my child are ready to deal with them that causes the uproar here. you may find that puritannical or uptight, i may find your level of readiness to be too loose or advanced. that doesn't necessarily make either of us wrong. in this instance, however, how can we satisfy both views? if you get what you want (ie questionable material stays), my child is forced into it. if i get what i want (ie questionable material removed), my child gets to steer clear, and you can still expose your child on your own time. keeping it forces those who don't want it to, to deal with it anyway. leaving it out does not force those who do want it, to not be able to deal with it, just not as a part of the school curriculum. i say leaving out some questionable materials better works towards satisfying both sides than forcing them to stay.

 

Well put. I really am glad that you brought up the First Amendment, Library Bill of Rights, etc. I, also, agree that the sentence saying you can decide what your children read, but cannot decide what other children read is a very important statement.

I still believe the Supreme Court ruling in 1982 clearly shows this is Unconstitutional. Please see one of my previous Posts quoting and linking that one.

I agree, but think most parents really don’t discuss some of these issues with their children/teens. I know for a fact most of my friends have not gone into detail on some issues. As far as allowing students to debate issues in a classroom…we have found from experience that most teachers are nervous to venture too far off of topic and that is a real shame. Our students are really missing out on an important part of education…Debate!

Grace

P.S. I think this is a very important topic. I do agree with Hatt6, as most of you know, about the arrest of the teacher on school property earlier this year even though most on the Board thought it was appropriate, I still do not.

 

“Local school boards may not remove books from school library shelves simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books …”
— U.S. Supreme Court in Board of Education, Island Trees School District v. Pico (1982)
The Pico case is the most important court decision to date concerning school libraries and the First Amendment. In it, the Court recognized that the First Amendment rights of students are “directly and sharply implicated” when a book is removed from a school library. Therefore, the discretion of school boards to remove books from school libraries is limited. The law requires that if a book is to be removed, an inquiry must be made as to the motivation and intention of the party calling for its removal. If the party’s intention is to deny students access to ideas with which the party disagrees, it is a violation of the First Amendment. (Also see Book censorship section.)
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/...c=banned_books



so, if you disgree with the idea that hustler is ok for the school library, that's just tough? i don't see what specific book this case was about, but i will read further. ideas such as political philosphies are not the same thing as sexual or adult content, imho

from the case summary in your link:

"petitioners might rightfully claim absolute discretion in matters of curriculum by reliance upon their duty to inculcate community values in schools"

in other words, the community absolutely has the right to determine curriculum based on their own local sense of right and wrong.

"Petitioners possess significant discretion to determine the content of their school libraries, but that discretion may not be exercised in a narrowly partisan or political manner"

this seems to relate to political ideas, not standards related to adult content. it's not a political issue that hustler is not for minors. it's an established community standard

 

OK First of all, the parent from Four Oaks that moved foward with this, from what I know did not go directly through the chain of command. From what I understand this parent went to the teacher & I can not speak of what did or did not occur there. I wasn't privy to that only these above people were. The parent then went right to the board back in October. Dr. P & the Chairman Mr. Fred at the time said that the board meeting needed to be closed due to personnel issues, which in fact is allowed. However, that was not the case. They spoke on the book. I will have to see if the minutes have been posted yet(they are supposed to be in a reasonable time frame fromt he meeting) However, there again doesn't mean someone can't change certain things.

About a week or so ago & I know this for a fact. Students at WJHS went to their first block class (faris) english & were not allowed in. The matter was being talked about with this teacher, administration & a few other people. From what I do know the Principal was one of the last to know exactly what was going on & she was taking care of business. Then the story breaks after a board meeting that lasted 8 or so hours.

Again, yes these board members are voted in. It is not that I have any ill will towards any of them. It is just time for parents to stand up & move people out such as Mr. Fred!! Stop this nonsense about the good ole boy network. There are too many people here now from all over. Let's make that difference now b4 it is to late. As for back door underhanded things, yes ,indeed this occurrs everywhere JOCO is no different. Yes, these things do occurr & danger boy you will see as time goes by keep that eye & ear open ALL THE TIME. I am glad youu will take that stand. Remember that you have a high profile attorney that sits on the board. Remember that the teacher that was arrested at Polenta in the office while students were on campus that the teacher bought most of that stuff from Carrolls Pharmacy in four oaks. This pharmacy is owned & operated by the same Kay Carroll that now is the chairman of the board. However, the positive thing of this Polenta incident is that obviously the pharmacy kept very good records!!! In the same boat remeber how the information came about from going through records. All these things add up!! I certainly did not vote for him either. I am not saying all board members are "bad" they are not Donna White & Larry Strickland care about our kids. They can not get anywhere b/c of the rest of the "crew" Look over the last several years it is always those two to help better our system & the rest taking over for their benefits. Just like having what a gym (I can;t remember) named after a board member.
As for the Dr Parker contract. It is ridiclous that certain members of the borad were in favor of the extension & major increase in his salary. When certain schools in the county can't even get materials b/c it is not in the budget. So those board members that were in favor are they helping foot the needed resources for our schools for our children's education. I THINK NOT!! It is all about stroking & filling the pockets

 

The argument that Hustler could be in a school is rather ridiculous. Everything chosen for a school library has to meet certain standards regarding age-appropriateness, connection to the curriculum, presentation of both sides of an issues, etc. Therefore, while the book in question might be found in a high school, it would not be in a middle school or elementary school library. You do not find Maurice Sendak's book Where the Wild Things Are in high school libraries, but it is in every elementary school's library. (And that book has been challenged in some school systems.)

Keep in mind the following books are on the most challenged/banned list for the US (this is for all libraries, school and public):

A Light in the Attic by Shel Silverstein
Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Patterson
In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak
Almost all of Judy Blume's books
Almost all of R.L. Stine's books
How to Eat Fried Worms by Thomas Rockwell

Did you ever read any of these? I read all of them as a child...I don't think it damaged my morals.

1984, A Brave New World, Animal Farm, The Outsiders, Ulysses, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and many others that were required reading when I was in high school are also on the list. These were not read without discussion. The discussions included why they were controversial. Understanding the objections was actually almost as important as understanding the literature itself because it gave me the ability to critique and evaluate the books that I read.

 

Granted, the link I am providing for your argument on Hustler (and others) pertains to Ohio but I don't feel like searching for North Carolina. I would guess, the Southern States would have done the exact same thing.

We have an age limit on pornography, set standards already in place, where minors cannot purchase it. That same pornography is not in any elementary school, middle school or high school that I know of. Same as tobacco laws.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=439&invol=438

Grace

 

if it was a supreme court decision, it would not matter if it was ohio or nc, they're both governed by scotus.

and i use hustler as an example because i think we all agree on its inappropriateness. the point is that hustler is legal, but restricted. not in schools. borderline literature can be restricted just the same, if the community standards indicate that it should be. that's not unconstitutional. the opinion in the 1982 case says so.

you did not, however, address really anything in my post. political ideas vs adult sexual content....

 

which ones of those are restricted due to adult or sexual content, as opposed to political ideas? i read most blume (imho the blume books were in the proper context for the age at which i was exposed to them. they were not explicit adult sexual situations), and the rockwell, but am not familiar with the others. those mentioned on your high school list are politically controversial, correct? not controversial because of sexual material? i have no problem with political discourse or protest. but i don't think that's what we've been talking about at all...

 

dangerboy,

I am really enjoying this discussion and glad we can be of help to one another regarding our children's education. Below is what I consider to be a good answer to what some have asked regarding what the meanings of Banned, Censorship, etc. are. I am supplying the link as I think it clears up some of what we have been discussing.

What Action Has Occurred in Controversies Involving Library Materials?​

​

• Ban = removal of a book or other material from a library of school
• Censorship = the practice of limiting or preventing access to information
• Challenge = concern about a content of a book or other material is voiced or in most cases, written down on a complaint form that begins a process of review by a librarian, school/library board, and/or administration
• Expurgate = removing or hiding words or other content of a book or other material in an effort to prevent access to the complete work done by individuals in most cases (p. 146 - American Library Association's Intellectual Freedom Manual, 7th edition, 2006 - call number 025.213 Int 2006)
• Reinstate = book or other material has been reviewed by a higher authority (after an earlier ruling that caused a restriction or ban to be enacted) and its content has been determined to be of sufficient merit to return to library shelves
• Restrict = book or other material has been challenged and a governing body has ruled that it be placed in a more mature area of the library or put in a secure area that requires permission to view/read

http://www.cy-faircollege.com/120343/

Grace


It takes involved parents to make involved children into involved citizens.

 

this mostly sounds like an election issue. there may be some reprisal for circumventing legal processes, and there should be if something untoward was done. but mostly it just sounds like you disagree with a bunch of duly elected school board members. vote them out...

 

I think that's a crucial difference - there's an important distinction between removing books because of ideas they contain, versus removing them for inappropriate content. I think your example of Hustler magazine makes it clear that virtually everybody agrees there are some reading materials that are over the line. We might draw the line in different places, though, and I don't agree that any book that's objectionable to any parent should be removed, any more than I would agree that material that's OK with one parent should necessarily stay. There must be some reasonable way to determine where that line is. I think the Supreme Court is still relying on community standards to determine what is or is not pornography; community standards might be a useful yardstick to determine what content is unacceptable - what amount of "sex-n-violence" is over the line for our community.

 

I would believe that the link below regarding the Supreme Court's ruling on filtering software in libraries for minors regarding pornographic websites/materials would apply in print as well (of course, I could be incorrect, but think that if enough time were done researching...around 30 minutes one could find it). I did find a wonderful site and the link is at the bottom of my Post. In the Post it addresses political, vulgar, and other items to include why School Boards should not have the “power” to decide what content should be in each school library.

This is a long Post but I have provided links for those just want to go straight to the sites. I find all of this very interesting and educational for adults and students alike.

Grace

http://www.tourolaw.edu/PATCH/Pico/

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/02pdf/02-361.pdf

A school library, no less than any other public library, is "a place dedicated to quiet, to knowledge, and to beauty." Brown v. Louisiana, 383 U.S. 131, 142 (1966) (opinion of Fortas, J.). Keyishian v. Board of Regents, 385 U.S. 589 (1967), observed that "'students must always remain free to inquire, to study and to evaluate, to gain new maturity and understanding.'" 21 The school library is the principal locus of such freedom. As one District Court has well put it, in the school library

"a student can literally explore the unknown, and discover areas of interest and thought not covered by the prescribed curriculum. . . . [The] student learns that a library is a place to test or expand upon ideas presented to him, in or out of the classroom." Right to Read Defense Committee v. School Committee, 454 F.Supp. 703, 715 (Mass. 1978).

Petitioners emphasize the inculcative function of secondary education, and argue that they must be allowed unfettered discretion to "transmit community values" through the Island Trees schools. But that sweeping claim overlooks the unique role of the school library. It appears from the record that use of the Island Trees school libraries is completely voluntary on the part of students. Their selection of books from these libraries is entirely a matter of free choice; the libraries afford them an opportunity at self-education and individual enrichment that is wholly optional. Petitioners might well defend their claim of absolute discretion in matters of curriculum by reliance upon their duty to inculcate community values. But we think that petitioners' reliance upon that duty is misplaced where, as here, they attempt to extend their claim of absolute discretion beyond the compulsory environment of the classroom, into the school library and the regime of voluntary inquiry that there holds sway.

(2) In rejecting petitioners' claim of absolute discretion to remove books from their school libraries, we do not deny that local school boards have a substantial legitimate role to play in the determination of school library content. We thus must turn to the question of the extent to which the First Amendment places limitations upon the discretion of petitioners to remove books from their libraries. In this inquiry we enjoy the guidance of several precedents. West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette stated:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion . . . . If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us." 319 U.S., at 642.

2 The District Court noted, however, that petitioners "concede that the books are not obscene." 474 F.Supp. 387, 392 (EDNY 1979).

16 Judge Sifton stated that it could be inferred from the record that petitioners' "political views and personal taste [were] being asserted not in the interests of the children's well-being, but rather for the purpose of establishing those views as the correct and orthodox ones for all purposes in the particular community." Id., at 417.

22 By "decisive factor" we mean a "substantial factor" in the absence of which the opposite decision would have been reached. See Mt. Healthy City Board of Ed. v. Doyle, 429 U.S. 274, 287 (1977).

23 Petitioners acknowledged that their "evaluation of the suitability of the books was based on [their] personal values, morals, tastes and concepts of educational suitability." App. 142. But they did not accept, and thus apparently denied, respondents' assertion that some excerpts were objected to as "anti-American." Ibid.

24 For example, petitioner Ahrens stated:

"I am basically a conservative in my general philosophy and feel that the community I represent as a school board member shares that philosophy. . .

I feel that it is my duty to apply my conservative principles to the decision making process in which I am involved as a board member and I have done so with regard to . . . curriculum formation and content and other educational matters." Id., at 21.

"We are representing the community which first elected us and re-elected us and our actions have reflected its intrinsic values and desires." Id., at 27.

Petitioners Fasulo, Hughes, Melchers, Michaels, and Nessim made a similar statement that they had "represented the basic values of the community in [their] actions." Id., at 120.

25 When asked to give an example of "anti-Americanism" in the removed books, petitioners Ahrens and Martin both adverted to A Hero Ain't Nothin' But A Sandwich, which notes at one point that George Washington was a slaveholder. See A. Childress, A Hero Ain't Nothin' But A Sandwich 43 (1973); Deposition of Petitioner Ahrens 89; Deposition of Petitioner Martin 20-22. Petitioner Martin stated: "I believe it is anti-American to present one of the nation's heroes, the first President, . . . in such a negative and obviously one-sided life. That is one example of what I would consider anti-American." Deposition of Petitioner Martin 22.

26 We have recognized in numerous precedents that when seeking to distinguish activities unprotected by the First Amendment from other, protected activities, the State must employ "sensitive tools" in order to achieve a precision of regulation that avoids the chilling of protected activities. See, e. g., Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 525-526 (1958); NAACP v. Button, 371 U.S. 415, 433 (1963); Keyishian v. Board of Regents, 385 U.S. 589, 603-604 (1967); Blount v. Rizzi, 400 U.S. 410, 417 (1971). In the case before us, the presence of such sensitive tools in petitioners' decision making process would naturally indicate a concern on their part for the First Amendment rights of respondents; the absence of such tools might suggest a lack of such concern. See 638 F.2d, at 416-417 (opinion of Sifton, J.).

http://www.tourolaw.edu/PATCH/Pico/

Grace

 

Grace, just a friendly suggestion. Most readers on this forum are not going to read through a long cut-and-paste to try to figure out what your point is. A much more effective strategy, I should think, would be to post a very brief summary, in your own words, and possibly use a brief, cogent quote from the source, and provide a link where those few who are really interested can get more information. Offering the option to follow the link and read the very same material somewhere else doesn't really address the objection of those who don't like long posts. What they want is just your point in a nutshell. Then go ahead and post the links for those who want more.

 

true.

and grace, this is not about pornography. hustler is a good example to use as objectionable material because it is pronography and nobody would condone including it.

from the link at the bottom of your essay

that case deals with much more in the arena of political ideas than sexual adult content. "and just plain filthy" comes at the end of a political tirade, and only restates the complainants' opinion on the books in question. can you find a case that deals with sexually explicit material instead of anti-american, anti-christian, anti-semetic"?

 

are you saying that the parent in the case her locally does not actually have his child's best interest at heart, but rather is seeking to define what YOU can and can't read? that's a stretch. i believe the parent is seeking to protect their child, otherwise this would not be about just the school, but also about public libraries and book stores

 

i hope grace won the prize for longest post.

 

Using your example above, and comparing it to the Four Oaks family, it appears to me that the parents from Four Oaks did indeed, decide to define what my children can and cannot read in the publicly supported school library.

It seems to simple to me. Prior to assigning any required reading, the English department sends home a list of required books. If parents are that concerned, perhaps they should read the books to decide. Once their objection to Book "A" or "B" is made, their child is allowed to choose an alternative, yet acceptable book.

The argument that the kids are still likely to be confronted with the book because other kids read it is, is no more an issue than events that occur (And yes, they do happen in school) that are against religious beliefs and for whom, accommodations are made, i.e. Jehovah’s Witness child going to an alternate classroom for the December "Holiday" party. And you can’t tell me that December holidays aren’t presented in school. In some fashion, they are. And any mention of them, or exposure to them is a religious concern for the JW parents.

It seems to me that if a parent wants to choose what their children will read, and control the things to which they are exposed, probably need to ensure that commercial television, internet access, and routine conversation within the child's peer group is restricted as well.

Before your child sets forth in school, I'd suggest you volunteer at the high school level. Just stand in the hallway at class change. Observe. Listen, especially for the undercurrents of conversation that most adults engage in only when they are among their own adult comfort zone.

These kids are thinking about it, talking about it, and doing it. To pretend otherwise is to place one's head in the sand.

 

i see it differently. they made an objection on the grounds that the book in question did not meet community standards. those are exactly the issues that should be brought before the board and decided by them.

and there are certainly parents who control the commercial television, internet activity and peer interaction, as well as what they read. don't doubt that for a second.

it is not the duty of the school to "enlighten" my child to issues of adult sexuality, or to any other political agenda for that matter. it is their duty to educate them in the manner set forth in standards and curriculum by the community authority, ie the school board, who have been elected to act for us.

i have no doubt that high schoolers talk about sex and drugs, etc. i did, and it hasn't been so long that i don't remember. but, as my grandma would say: "don't borrow trouble". they're already dealing with alot. no need to introduce extra adult situations to them, when they've got enough on their plates already.

i certainly hope you don't think i'm burying my head in the sand. far from it. while my politics may be conservative, my social stands are many times progressive and liberal. i know all too well what goes on, and knowing as much as i do is what makes me want to be that much more protective. i understand that there are issues that my child will be exposed to, and needs to be exposed to, that will be uncomfortable. i don't see a reason to add to them unecessarily, that's all.

but you've sort of changed the topic on me now. i'm not claiming that high school students should be sheltered. this conversation is about whether or not parents have the right to petition the school board to remove material they deem to be questionable by community value standards, not the merits of teaching sex ed or not

 

amen and as one who is in the world of middle schoolers please don't think they aren't doing the same -- parents can feel sure when 400 to 2000 kids are put in one place there are all kinds of values coming together and if you aren't talking about yours then your kids are listening to others...