This reply is based on my own experiences and is not in any way an attack or confrontational reply. I'm just sharing from my perspective. Please don't take this in any negative way but for informational purposes. I am involved with leadership roles within C3 (volunteer not staff) and I would say this is not the intent or way leadership at C3 thinks or intentionally acts towards those in ministry. I have been involved on ministry teams, in leadership positions for over 10 years (not all with C3). One of the hardest things to do is to ask someone to take a step back from ministry for a little while. Sometimes it's taken well and sometimes it's not. How someone reacts towards being asked to take a break is how a simple situation can turn complicated. I don't think I've ever known a single person in ministry that out right wanted to kick anyone off the team just to be hurtful. Most ministers care more about the individual and what's best for them more than the role/position they fill. Most times when someone is asked to step down, it's not because of a one time issue, but things or pattern of decisions or actions that have occurred repeatedly over a period of time. We wouldn't ask someone to step down from a leadership role if they were away every now and then for weekend services. Everyone needs vacation time with the family and time to rejuvenate. But if the pattern is, you're not in church except when you are scheduled to work, and your a leader of a team, then that becomes a concern. One if your not getting a chance to just hear the Word of God and Worship without having to worrying about working, eventually that will begin to effect your spiritual walk/relationship with God. It becomes more I'm doing for God rather than I'm loving and serving God. Second, as a leader you are communicating to your team they need to be in church when they aren't serving but you aren't doing the same. So it confuses the team members and says to them that attending church is not a priority. We should all serve from the overflow of what God is putting into us through daily time with Him (reading the Bible, praying, singing/worshiping), going to church to receive not just serve/give, fellowshipping with other Christians that encourage and lift one another up and hold each other accountable, etc... Pastor Matt does have accountability, both inside the church and other Pastors from other churches. And there are avenues of discussing issues. Sometimes people leave and your heart breaks because you never want anyone to leave because they were hurt or offended. Unfortunately, people are not perfect in leadership or people under leadership and sometimes things can be taken the wrong way. I have experienced being asked to step down for a period of time before. I had a choice to be offended or focus on the area(s) of my life during my break that would help me to be a stronger Christian and eventually a healthier, more compassionate and better leader later on when I step back into whatever role. Sometimes I have to give correction to my kids and as a parent. It's hard and I hate having to do it but I know I'm doing it because I love them and I want nothing but the very best for my son and my daughter. I'm willing to be the bad guy sometimes and make tough decisions that later on in life, they will understand why we taught them the things they learned as a child. I'm sorry for anyone who has ever been hurt or offended by any church (i.e. person in a church). I pray that you will get connected somewhere and allow God to heal you and move forward in your journey with God. Just remember, we should always be focused on Jesus, no matter what church we are in and not focus on man. People will fail us because no one is perfect outside of Jesus. We should be submitted to the authorities in our lives. Those in authority will give an account to Jesus for any and all decisions they have made both good and bad. Thanks for letting me share.
Then it shouldn't matter to Pastor Matt & co., and you should be encouraged by him to have a Bible study in your home, correct? Or how about just having lunch out and discussing Jesus while you eat, would that be ok?
Just bringing a little perspective to some of the numbers above. 2500 people doesn't mean they are all adults. It doesn't mean that everyone gives to C3. We have tons and tons of children and teens under the age of 18. So not everyone is giving $20 each or anything at all. As for tithing, ask any pastor and they will say that only a small percentage of regular attenders/members actually tithe. Yes C3 has sponsored/donated money to several organizations in the community, like many other contributors. The broken windows would be more of a question to the Cleveland Athletic Association as to why they did or didn't fix the broken windows. I would think it's up to them to determine how or if they fix the windows, not the contributors.
Connect Group = Small Group where we study the Bible, discuss life issues, develop relationships with one another and pray for and encourage one another. My wife and I lead a couples connect group. C3 does provide curriculum, if needed for your connect group. We have full freedom to re-write the curriculum and come up with our thing if we want. It has been stated to us many times. Some people don't feel as confident doing that so the curriculum is there to assist the leader if they need/want it. Once the discussion is started, we study the Bible and often times it leads from one thing to another. We discuss what the Bible teaches, how we can apply it to our lives and we even talk about the not so fun stuff too. The term going "Deep" is a term sometimes used. But going "Deep" can be different from person to person. One of the goals for us to help people take at least one more step closer to Jesus. With each step we can become more like Jesus. Think about this way. Imagine you are at the beach standing at the edge of the water. Now imagine you are taking taking one step at a time into the water. With each step you the water begins to get higher and higher. At first it's easy to walk and take another step. As you get deeper and deeper, the higher the water is, the harder to walk is, the more the waves are moving you around. If you keep going eventually you'll get deeper and deeper where you are completely underwater. With the right equipment/resources, you can keep going deeper and deeper. The same is true in your walk with God. Some people are still on the beach watching, checking things out. Not sure if they really want to get in the water (i.e. become a Christian), others are at the edge of the water and they are about to take their first step towards becoming a Christian. Others are in the shallow water just hanging out having fun. Enjoying the new life in Jesus. Others are out waste deep and deeper and they are starting to explore new areas of their Christian walk. Question: If each person in the example takes one step further into the water, have they not each gone deeper than they were before? Some people are going to be the type that runs and jumps right in and swims to the deepest part they can get to and others will take a slower pace. One last example. Remember the guy who's walking and caring the cross all across the country. If you were to get on I-40 today and start walking. It may feel like it would take you a lifetime to get from here to California. But as long as you keep taking steps in the right direction, you will always be getting closer to your destination. Some days you will be able to walk a long distance, other days you may only make it a little ways down the road. As long you don't quit or turn-back, you are getting closer and closer with every step. Our connect groups are designed so that anyone can come at anytime (Christian or not) and be able to take at least one more step closer to Jesus.
Do you believe all that answers my question? How about if we have lunch and talk about Jesus, would that be ok with C3 leadership?
Just to clarify, since this seems to be one of the latest of Ormly's sticking points. Does C3 allow it's members to hold private Bible Studies?
There would be no problem. I'm not sure why you are trying to making it come across as if they would. No pastor, leadership or church that I know of would say that.
thanks BinaryDig for your side of the story. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. My numbers may be off a bit on the money the church collects and I appreciate any effort they contribute to the comunity. I know that they could do much more in the community (with members money and their time) is all. And that is based on what I saw being a volunteer leader for over a year. You made a comment regarding Matt's accountability. If he is the head of the church then who is he accountable to locally as you mention? Thanks
C3 calls their Bible study Connect Groups. Some churches call their Bible study, Sunday School. Some call it Bible study and don't have small groups or Sunday school. People can have their own Bible study if they wish. One example, I know of some home school mom's who get together and their own little bible study. I've heard of some guy friends that get together from time to time and go 4 wheel'in and fishin' and discuss the Bible and what's going on in life and stuff. C3 is not preventing people from getting together to discuss Jesus or the Bible.
You and I can open a new thread and have our own Bible Study right here on 4042, and it wouldn't matter to C3 one bit.
He has both an executive team (staff) and a team of leaders (not staff) that he meets with. As for local Pastors, I'm not 100% if he meets with anyone locally for those types of discussions. I know he has a lot of good relationships with local Pastors. I do know though he has several key Pastor relationships out of state that he gets counsel from.
Oh dear...........You may not know what you are getting into. Even though you may have used that as an example, Ormly tends to take things to the "brink". I personally have nothing against Ormly, it's just that at time he seems rather......of the wall?
Sunday school is a bit more structured than a Bible Study (which is more like a coffee clutch with the Bible as a focus). But thank you for clarifying. There appears to be a concerted effort by several (or one, under several logins), to put down C3. I don't attend myself, but someone(s) making that big of a deal about a church they admittedly don't even attend doesn't seem right. I would hope that you, since you do attend, can keep watch and clarify issues brought up.
So, if someone had a serious complaint against the church they would have to bring that up with someone below his level or a volunteer? So, they would have some sort of authority over the situation at hand?
Thanks for your reply. I think sometimes, the more "contemporary" churches use terms that get lost in translation. Old school terms vs New School terms but both doing the same activity. As in the case of some people are used to hearing things like Bible Study and we may call it Connect Group. I try not to let some of the posts bother me but then sometimes, I want to add another perspective from my experience just like everyone else is sharing their experience or sometimes opinion. Sometimes it's hard to sit back while someone else is putting down something you see as important or care about. There are a lot of genuine people at C3 that love God and care about each individual that walks through that door, Christian or not, member or not, fan or not. So much so, they faithfully serve week-in and week-out, some spend many nights through-out the week preparing for the weekend. A lot of great people volunteering their time to serve others in their community. From the youngest to the oldest, the volunteers love to serve and see people's lives get touched by God. Seeing people's lives being forever changed. And then I think about so many of the people that have told me they never could imagine themselves being in a church. They just never found a place they felt like they could welcomed as they are. From young wild teenagers to older couples some that are retirement age. And so many people from all walks of life. Because our church is very aggressive and loud, sometimes the older generation don't like how loud it is at times. They sit a little further back from the stage but they love seeing what God is doing. C3 is just one church in an area of great churches. It's God who deserves all the credit.
Depending on the situation and how comfortable that person feels about whether they can try and address the situation or not. Regardless either way, any issue, whether resolved by the volunteer or not, is/should be reported upward to the staff so they are aware of it. But yes, they try and empower the leaders as much as possible.
That appears to me as dancing around a question, sorry. Reporting upward leaves only Martha and Matt. So where does accountability come in.
