Im sorry i meant my quote for clif, kimmie and all that were involved and their difference of opinions. Guess I was trying to calm the arguing that was going on. I was not in any way ,shape or form agreeing with what the parents did.
I am a Christian...that means I've accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. On the parent with the 11 yr old...If you notice in the article things don't seems add up or line up with the typical "cultist" religion cases. They appear to have very normal lives with a business. A coffee shop! Caffine people...think about it. Then they actually placed a call to 911. That wouldn't have happened in a family that was truely in a religion that was against medical intervention. The father admitted to performing CPR on her "the moment the breath of life left her", again not something typically done in zealots. They would have praised God that she was in a better place. Also the "head of their order" denied they were members of their ministry. But side stepped questions about medical interventions, making it sound like it was the members choice, but that it was frowned upon ulimately. Sounded very "cultish" like the Sciencetology stuff Tom Cruise is involved in...Kindof a you are in there if you send money, but you're not if you need us. And most likely they were new converts by the way they made it sound. That she had been a public school child...until recently homeschooled (Don't go bashing the homeschoolers!!! Most of you freely admit you wish you could 8)) On the 15 month old's parents (and a little bit of Clif's ask and you shall receive)....they look scary....They have already lost one child due to "stillbirth", and this is obviously something that I as a parent and Christian would be torn about. There are many "religions" out there that have followers who believe certain things. I fully believe in prayer, anointed prayer, and prayer in numbers....but it doesn't mean that God's answer is always going to be "ding...you asked and you shall receive." God hears the prayers of those who have asked him into his heart. If you are living in His word He will hear them, but sometimes the answer is yes, no, wait. I don't think that he gives healing powers to televanglist, nor to I believe he gives sight to "prophets" of some "religions", that's just my opinion. I think that God gives us children as gifts...that we are to take care of and send into the world to be lights for Him...and they didn't take care of that child. They were selfish. The fact that they said that many families in that "religion" had reported "stillbirths" from homebirths without investigations should tell you something. Go to your church. How many women have had stillbirths? It's rare. Especially I'd say today. A true "stillbirth" is to be born dead. Those babies died after birth because they didn't have proper medical treatment. That's just wrong in today's society. Unless you live in an amish community. And I'd bet those ladies know what they are doing in birthing babies. This is a touchy subject.
After watching this on Nancy Grace last night, I definitely say they should be charged. They searched the home and found the family (that owns its own coffee shop) actually has insurance for themselves (HMO through BCBS). So why would they purchase insurance, when they are small business owners, if they didn't believe in using medicine? They also found a syringe with what they believe is insulin in it. This 11 yo precious little girl hadn't been to the doctor since the age of 3, and they had pulled her out of regular school to home school. The 911 call that was made wasn't by the family, but by some friends that came by to pray for the girl and noticed she wasn't breathing. A little before the 911 call a sister in law called the Sheriff's office to inform them of the little girl being very, very sick and had slipped into a coma. From all reports this families family all lived in CA and they had contacted the Mother in law for all the CA family to pray for this girl, because she had slipped into a coma. When the sister in law found out and finally found out their address she alerted authorities, because she was very concerned for the girls well being. It's so sad that it was too late. As of last night at 9:00 when I was watching Nancy, the family hadn't been charged, but the 3 other children had been removed from the home.:hurray: Also, they had medical advisors on the show that stated how painful and slow a death it would be to die way. I also heard a recording of the Father, that sounded down right non emotional. He said well we didn't know she was diabetic....unbelievable!
I understand what y'all are saying. The problem is that you're not understanding what I'm saying. Based on the context of Matthew 7, it would appear that the "what" is anything asked. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Matthew 7:7-11 Then isn't that sort of proof that the Bible is wrong or lying? I mean the Bible says "Ask and ye shall receive" yet we ask but don't receive. Then we are told that the unwritten part is that sometimes the answer is "no", but that's a cop out. Ok, so there are inconsistencies in the Bible based on inaccurate translation. But the church leaders are insistent that the Bible isn't wrong. Do they mean the Greek Bible isn't wrong but the English Bible is? To Nancy Grace, everyone who is charged is guilty. After watching her on the Duke Lacrosse fiasco, you'd have posted that the players should be executed and save the state the cost of a trial.
I watched as much as I could. It makes me cry. My boys are 11 and I cannot imagine seeing them not feeling good and sickly and not doing anything about it. As a Mother, I cannot comprehend that at all.
But the parents were doing what they thought was best, weren't they? It may not be what you think is best, but doesn't that just mean their faith is stronger than yours?
Clif, so you are saying that the parents prayed for there child to be healed and based on the "ask and you shall receive" they we not negligent in any way, b/c as believers, they had done what the bible had said. correct? I'm trying really hard to understand you.
If they were doing what they truly believed in, don't you think they wouldn't have an HMO? I mean if I didn't believe in modern medicine, I wouldn't seek out and purchase insurance. :? About Nancy Grace...the police department was on and saying what they had found in the home, and the 911 calls were played, so I believe what I heard. She advocates for victims, not the accused..a novel concept don't you think? She always says everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but instead of the criminals always having the voice, she actually gives a voice to the victims or their family members.
Clif, I do see what you are trying to say. That parents who believe in faith healing maybe shouldn't be held responsible for a child's death. However, this may not have been the best example as apparently they believed in healthcare for themselves and not their daughter. Regardless, not sure you are going to get the answer you seek. As an aside, don't the Amish even seek modern medical care at times? I know there are some religions that don't believe in blood transfusions and the like.
just for arguments sake, lets say that the person that killed the UNC and Duke students had his beliefs in God as well. He prayed to God for guidance in his life and God told him he had to sacrifice 2 people. This guy firmly believes this is what God wants. Now we have 2 dead students and he thinks he did nothing wrong because he firmly believes in prayer and God wanted him to do it. should we let him off too just because of his beliefs? There is right and there is wrong. You don't murder and you don't neglect a child to the point that they die. I know this is far fetched butjust because you believe it doesn't make it right.
Prayer is very vital in these situations. But I know and my pastor at church has told us alot that God is not against doctors and that He gifted them with the knowledge to help the sick. It's wonderful to have doctors and medical professionals. We can and SHOULD use them. I think they should have given this situation over to the doctors and still prayed for her speedy recovery along the way. It's not doubting God.....it's letting God work through doctors for what is needed. There are "immediate miraculous" healings all through history and today. We don't know why healing is not always "immediately miraculous" nor would we even understand it if God told us why. But let it be sufficient to say that we will all know one day and to now use our power of prayer along good sense.
After all the crap you have posted in this thread about me, now you want me to believe you're trying to understand where I'm coming from? I was born at night, but not last night. Did they have insurance? (And, if they did, did they choose to have it?) I'm not seeking any particular answer, just discussion. How do you know they believed in healthcare for themselves?
To me it doesn't mean their Faith is stronger than mine. Maybe their faith in their religion is stronger than my faith in their religion.
So if I believe pigs can fly and my kid dies because I threw him off a bridge on the back of a pig, I shouldn't be charged?
I saw it on CNN last night. The police said they confiscated from the home insurance information and HMO cards from BCBS for the parents. They were independent small business owners, so they would have had to purchase the policies themselves. Clif, after more investigating, if the above turns out to be 100% accurate then would you believe the parents should be charged? I say if it is accurate, then they truly didn't believe in faith healing in the first place.
So, basically, Abraham should have been charged with attempted murder? That is your belief, but not those of the parents in question. Then, if the girl had died anyway, should the parents have been charged because they didn't take their daughter to a better doctor?
