I was somewhat mistaken on the possible defense fro NC under Title VII. On September 19, 2008, a federal district judge ruled that the Library of Congress illegally discriminated against Schroer, in a groundbreaking decision that found that discriminating against someone for changing genders is sex discrimination under federal law. On April 28, 2009, the judge ordered the government to pay nearly $500,000 in compensation for the discrimination, which was the maximum he could award in the case. Federal cases which have upheld transgender rights under Title VII include Smith v. City of Salem in the Sixth Circuit (2004), Schroer v. Billington in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (2008), and Glenn v. Brumby in the Eleventh Circuit in Atlanta (2011). All of these victories set the table for the landmark EEOC decision, issued on April 20, 2012, in a case brought by Transgender Law Center: Macy v. Holder. In that case, the bipartisan EEOC—the federal agency in charge of enforcing employment discrimination laws—declared unanimously that anti-trans bias was sex discrimination under Title VII.
What is the definition of "Changing genders"? Does that mean sex re-assignment surgery? If so, when you do that, you change your gender on your birth certificate as well, and then HB2 would be moot. Does it mean a guy that dresses like a girl? Does it mean taking hormones? Does it mean a guy can say he feels like a girl? I think defining the terms used would go a long way, then you need to come up with some scientific method of proving/challenging it. Otherwise, there is a ton of grey area. You need to draw a line somewhere, and that is what needs to be defined here.
The site below really explains it all. It has the questions on a person's mind where one can click and it will answer the question. I was in the dark until I started talking to some friends and reading about it. Sherry http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx What does transgender mean? Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow. What is the difference between sex and gender? Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ. Various conditions that lead to atypical development of physical sex characteristics are collectively referred to as intersex conditions. For information about people with intersex conditions (also known as disorders of sex development), see APA’s brochure Answers to Your Questions About Individuals With Intersex Conditions.
Unless you were born in, say, Tennessee where they do not recognize any such changes in regard to the birth certificate. Then you go into how long does it take for the hormone treatments, etc. and how you handle the transition period. The DSM clearly addresses how the medical professionals define this, but the NC legislature did not want to find out any of that in their rush to make broad generalizations.
So by the definition alone, transgender is an extremely grey area. That does not work well with our legal system. You need to have a clear, scientifically provable definition of what a man and a woman are if you want to have things such as Men's and Women's locker rooms. If a court case came up where someone said they saw someone that did not belong in such a locker room, how would it be decided? Based on what evidence? What is the legal definition of who can use which room? These are all things that need to be decided, unless of course you just feel anyone can use any room, in which case we should just go to having one locker room, one bathroom, etc.
Really? What is the difference between art nude and pornography? Life is a grey area. A court case will not come up concerning someone who did not belong is such a room unless one tries to define that action as illegal. There may be disputes such as have been illustrated here, but if there is a legal right to use there is not going to be the impediment for those who have historically been assaulted or abused to contact the authorities to remedy the situation.
There are a lot of questions that need to be answered as things change in our world. I have never seen nor been around anyone who has been assaulted in a restroom, but I do believe that happens more in men's restrooms than women's. I am not as concerned about the restroom portion of the Bill, but I am concerned about the other discriminatory items in it. Very concerned. Sherry
Still no answer to the question, how do you define who can use which bathroom? Or do we move to a 3 bathroom society? What is the solution? What scientific evidence do you use to justify who can use which bathroom? So when you go to water park, and your daughter goes into the changing room to change from her clothes into her bathing suit, who else is allowed in that room with her? It's not uncommon to see someone naked or at least partially naked in the changing rooms, I've seen it plenty of times at Wet n Wild in Greensboro.
I cannot answer every question you are asking, but I can answer the water park. Even when my daughter was a year round competitive swimmer I went into the changing room with her up until she was about 15 years old or she went with at least another adult I knew. I didn't go with her because I thought she would be molested, I went with her because I thought she would take too much time and/or get caught up talking to others she knew. Most women/girls do not change clothes out in the open. 99.9999% change clothes behind a closed bathroom/changing room stall. Now, I can tell you that some of the pools have showers inside where one can go to rinse off that have curtains. I have yet to hear of one single girl or woman complain that anyone pulled that curtain open....unless it was a parent or friend. Friends goof on one another and parents tell the kid to stop messing around and get done! lol Maybe we need to take men on a tour of some of the women's restrooms and/or changing rooms so you guys will understand. Our stalls, also, have locks on them. Parents can wait outside the enter door and if a kid doesn't come out shortly; 1) ask someone going in to check on them, 2) holler inside for the kid and/or 3) walk on in to check on the kid. Seems pretty simple to me! Sherry
We define it as the person using the room with which they associate themselves. Those who are transgender have been doing this for quite some time generally without notice because they do not want to be noticed and abused. The evidence is clear. Those who are transgender and use the restroom for which they feel associated run a much higher risk of assault. Those who use the restroom for which they do not feel associated run a much higher risk of being assaulted than those using the restroom for which they associate. This is generally due to their dress and mannerisms more closely following the room to which they associate. Whomever is more closely associated with females. Transgenders will not be in such a situation where they are exposed because it is not in their better interest. They may have a bathing suit on under their clothes and simply remove them, but that would generally be the extent of it.
Proof would be something like a Drivers License or Birth Certificate says you are a certain gender, when you pull down your pants you have a specific organ between your legs, in a DNA test you have specific chromosomes, etc. Those are science and can be proven. Saying "I feel like a girl" or "I associate with being a woman" is not evidence that could be used scientifically. That is an opinion.
That is no more proof than anything else IF you have a basic grasp of the issues surrounding intersex births and their relationship to transgender issue later in life. No you do not in all cases. Again, no, you do not in all cases. No, it cannot. Up until recently doctors assigned a sex to infants in certain circumstances and in some of those cases they were wrong and the infants identified with the opposite gender. These are documented in the medical literature. Yes it can. Look at the DSM. Different from the incorrect opinions you posted here, how? The biggest question is why do you care? Transgenders are not the same as pedophiles nor is there any data to support they are sexual predators. There were no laws preventing the use of one restroom by someone not clearly of that sex prior to last month and there were how many associated sexual assaults because of that? Please give us your scientific facts to support this discrimination process.
some of the people thrown under the bus in this issue: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm Ideally, a team of health care professionals with expertise in intersex should work together to understand and treat the child with intersex and support the family. Parents should understand controversies and changes in treating intersex in recent years. In the past, the prevailing opinion was that it was generally best to assign a gender as quickly as possible. This was often based on the external genitals rather than the chromosomal gender. Parents were told to have no ambiguity in their minds as to the gender of the child. Prompt surgery was often recommended. Ovarian or testicular tissue from the other gender would be removed. In general, it was considered easier to reconstruct female genitalia than functioning male genitalia, so if the "correct" choice was not clear, the child was often assigned to be a girl. More recently, the opinion of many experts has shifted. Greater respect for the complexities of female sexual functioning has led them to conclude that suboptimal female genitalia may not be inherently better than suboptimal male genitalia, even if the reconstruction is "easier." In addition, other factors may be more important in gender satisfaction than functioning external genitals. Chromosomal, neural, hormonal, psychological, and behavioral factors can all influence gender identity. Many experts now urge delaying definitive surgery for as long as is healthy, and ideally involving the child in the gender decision. Clearly, intersex is a complex issue, and its treatment has short- and long-term consequences. The best answer will depend on many factors, including the specific cause of the intersex. It is best to take the time to understand the issues before rushing into a decision. An intersex support group may help acquaint families with the latest research, and may provide a community of other families, children, and adult individuals who have faced the same issues.
So are you suggesting we should add additional genders besides Male and Female to legal documents? If that is the solution you are suggesting, then I would agree that is a possible solution. There is always something between your legs, I would agree it can be more than 2 different thing, but there is always something. When you Urinate, it has to come from something. If you had nothing, then you cannot urinate and would not survive. The 46th and sometimes 47th chromosome always have some combination of X and Y chromosomes. If you had no chromosomes, you would not be alive. I didn't say it has to be XX or XY, just that you can run a DNA test and find out what those chromosomes are. That is scientific evidence. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system I am simply suggesting that our society has always used Gender in legal documents and in court cases. If you want to change the definition of Male and Female, or of what possible legal Genders there, then that is what needs to be done. But If your birth certificate says you are male, and your drivers license says you are male, then if you are found in a women's bathroom and someone calls the police, the courts will find you guilty of violating the law. Currently, different states identify your gender in different ways Other bills got a lot more specific. Thirteen specified that chromosomes should be taken into account to define sex, but only Indiana’s House Bill 1079 was detailed enough to say that a female was defined as someone with “at least one X chromosome and no Y chromosome” and that males included everyone with “at least one X chromosome and at least one Y chromosome.” Washington’s Senate Bill 6548 and House Bill 2589 both allowed some transgender people to use the bathroom that matched their gender identity, provided that they’d had genital surgery and did not have “genitalia of a different gender from that for which the facility is segregated.” All three of those bills are now inactive.
Here's a much simpler question: Q) Should "Men" be allowed in "Women's" restrooms and locker rooms (and should "Women" be allowed in "Men's" rooms)? If you answered NO, then here is what will happen. Said "Man" or "Woman" could be arrested. Next question: Q) Said "Man" now goes to court to defend why he was in the "Woman's" restroom. What legal evidence is used to prove he should not have been in the "Woman's" restroom?
No, why does it matter exactly? Which has nothing to do with what sex one is. How would you classify someone who had a total penectomy? If the genetics do not have to be XX or XY how does that determine the gender? https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/klinefelter-syndrome#genes Klinefelter syndrome is a condition related to the X and Y chromosomes (the sex chromosomes). People typically have two sex chromosomes in each cell: females have two X chromosomes (46,XX), and males have one X and one Y chromosome (46,XY). Most often, Klinefelter syndromeresults from the presence of one extra copy of the X chromosome in each cell (47,XXY). Extra copies of genes on the X chromosome interfere with male sexual development, often preventing the testes from functioning normally and reducing the levels of testosterone. Most people with an extra X chromosome have the features described above, although some have few or no associated signs and symptoms. Some people with features of Klinefelter syndrome have more than one extra sex chromosome in each cell (for example, 48,XXXY or 49,XXXXY). These conditions, which are often called variants ofKlinefelter syndrome, tend to cause more severe signs and symptoms than classic Klinefelter syndrome. In addition to affecting male sexual development, variants of Klinefelter syndrome are associated with intellectual disability, distinctive facial features, skeletal abnormalities, poor coordination, and severe problems with speech. As the number of extra sex chromosomes increases, so does the risk of these health problems. Some people with features of Klinefelter syndrome have the extra X chromosome in only some of their cells; in these individuals, the condition is described as mosaic Klinefelter syndrome(46,XY/47,XXY). Individuals with mosaic Klinefelter syndrome may have milder signs and symptoms, depending on how many cells have an additional X chromosome. In what instances does it even matter? Not prior to the passage of HB2 and not even now if you look at the lack of mechanism for enforcement. Kind of like how they used to define race, which has no bearing on race identification now or in any scientific manner as most of us are not racially pure. Which we know is not scientifically sound for all cases as there are women (legally defined as such) living happy lives with a Y chromosome. This is checked how? As noted the birth certificate in a stat such as Tennessee cannot be changed so the documentation would have to exclude a birth certificate. Again for what purpose? That is probably why these bills are inactive, they are flawed.
