Elon Musk's First Tesla Solar Roof Is Here

Ok, what next unicorns and butterflies? There is no need for storage just like any other current energy production method. You may need to consider storage if you have a solar system operating off the grid if it is the sole source of energy. If there are multiple sources of energy available, then not so much.

It prevents the need for such programs instead of building another power plant or three. It is another supply source to add to the existing sources. There is no talk of storing power from those sources, so why would there be a need for this discussion?

 

To the obtuse, there is no need. You qualify. Congrats.

 

Then perhaps you can explain the need for storage for coal, hydroelectric, solar, wind, NG, petroleum, and nuclear generated power in order so the ultimate need is understood?

 

Most of this discussion will be moot in the next few months. If the US raises the tariffs on Chinese solar products, and the products become too expensive, China will likely abandon the US market, unless they decide to manufacture here in the US, and use American labor. Trade tariffs normally work to protect domestic products, but because we have not supported our solar industry, what will happen instead, is that we will lose a valuable supply chain that we depend on, along with the newly created blue collar jobs that go along with it. While China currently supplies 95 per cent of the world's solar products, US workers in the solar industry depend on these products to service the US market. That means that solar mounters, installers, and other peripheral workers, could likely lose their jobs, which would be a shame, since many of these retrained workers came from dying industries to begin with. Meanwhile, China is plunging headlong into the future, and has instituted an ambitious program where by 2050, 80 per cent of their energy will come from solar.

 

And right here in Clayton, NC! One of the largest concentrations of Pharma workers in the southeast. Currently around 2000 people work in Clayton in Pharma, soon to be about 2500.

 

Not only Solar Products, but most other equipment used on/in the home is now made in China!
It used to be that a lot of home items were made in Japan!! Now a lot of the Japanese items are made in the US and just the profits go to Japan.

 

OK....here's my probably dumb, unscientific answer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

Excerpt:

Electrolysis of water is the decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen gas due to an electric current being passed through the water. The reaction has a standard potential of −1.23 V, meaning it ideally requires a potential difference of 1.23 volts to split water.

This technique can be used to make hydrogen fuel (hydrogen gas) and breathable oxygen; though currently most industrial methods make hydrogen fuel from natural gas instead.​

OK...both oxygen and hydrogen are highly flammable, clean-burning gasses. Use the solar panels to break down water into these gasses during the day, and burn the gasses at night to power the turbines.

It's such a simple answer that there has to be something wrong with it. I'm not sure what it is, but it sure seems like there's a solution lurking in there somewhere for the eggheads to crack.

 

The only drawback is the storage media for the H2 gas, which would require pressurization to work, but this is a minor issue. There have been H2 generators for laboratory use for decades to eliminate the need for compressed gas cylinders. The fact is we would not need to store the energy unless we relied solely on solar generation, which is not the case. I believe 50% of the total power usage for the state of California was filled by solar production for several hours the past March. The more expensive generation facilities were merely idled as they are when there is more supply than demand when using only the fossil fueled generators.

A side note there is a rare earth hydrogen "battery" technology available from the Chinese. It stores H2 gas in a solid matrix and releases cleaned H2 at a constant pressure over time. There is no need for pressurization or a pressure regulator. The largest was designed for shipboard use as a back up power source. My last discussions with them involved targeting small engine power in areas like the LA basin and Denver where there were air quality issues.

 

Thanks, Wayne. It sounds doable, we just need the Will to do it.

 

Replaced mine last October. That's pretty close.

 

Yes, in our discussions the potential for the use in automobiles was an ultimate goal. The conversion of all of those gas station canopies to solar panels to convert water to hydrogen would make every one of them able to produce some amount of their final product during the day. Larger facilities could produce and ship the rest to them just like the tanker trucks do today. Not really that different than NG or propane powered vehicles now.

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/file/index/docid/218887/filename/ajp-jphyscol197940C5104.pdf

 

Does't hydrogen have a problem causing metals to become brittle? I read somewhere about needing specialized equipment to handle H. I know a lot of critical welding requires low hydrogen rods for the root pass.

 

I think there is with some metals during high temperature exposure, such as welding smelting, etc.. I do know there is a process which forms stainless steel containers while it cleans them by using an oven containing only H2 gas. There was a company in Raleigh called Microwave Laboratories which used this process to produce radar components for the DOD during the heyday of military spending. We held discussions on producing ambient air sampling canisters with them but their expert did disagreed with ours on the precise solder mixtures to use and even though there was only minor differences they both held that they were correct and the other wrong.

 

I forgot there is a company which coats metal with ~1µm of silica to prevent contamination from the metal and to the metal, which coupled with the larger Teflon coatings could protect any threatened metal components. Since H2 gas has been used for decades in laboratories and field testing around the world I do not see a problem in that area.

 

Theres an article today 8-10 about solar, lack of storage capacity and the eclipse in NC. fivethityeight.com.

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-solar-eclipse-vs-solar-electricity/

 

It's complicated. If you're one of the many Americans that have noticed the increase in Chinese manufactured goods over the last 15 years, it's only because foreign investments in China (the US included) have made it possible. Before Chairman Mao died, China really was a backwater country with little production capabilities, but from 1981-2010, 678 million Chinese were lifted out of poverty largely through increased manufacturing - actually EXPLODING manufacturing. That means that in thirty short years, China became the largest manufacturer of goods in the world. Now, in a global world there is not much people can do if they have suffered the loss of manufacturing jobs, like we have in the US. Capital, labor, and profit is becoming increasingly interconnected by multi-nationals, so at times, certain labor markets will naturally suffer. But there may be a kind of "silver lining" to the loss of American manufacturing jobs. As Chinese manufacturing wages continue to rise, and American wages stay flat, or decrease even further, China and other foreign countries, could decide to manufacture more of their products here in the US. In fact, that scenario is already predicted to come into play in the coming years as manufacturing labor costs between the US and China equalize, making the US labor market a more attractive place for foreign manufacturing investments. That's the reason that Chinese multinational Foxxcon is building a factory in Wisconsin - that and the fact that Wisconsin lawmakers sweetened the deal by giving Foxxcon 3 billion dollars in tax incentives courtesy of Wisconsin taxpayers.

 

The big issue with Chinese production is tight quality control. I worked with a Chinese company that was wanting to purchase some old style equipment from a US company which had been sold to a conglomerate, shut down and the rights and old inventory purchased by a couple of us. I committed to building the equipment for sale in China because the US name was very desirable even though the equipment ran on DOS. We filled the orders and sat down to discuss the future of the company as we either needed to shut it down or invest heavily in the redesign of the equipment and operating systems. There had been a $1 million investment in converting the DOS system to Windows but since that division was shut down they never took possession of the the new programming. Two of us drew up plans for the upgraded hardware before it was decided that the rest of us would sell to the one ... not me. Fast forward two years and there was a new Chinese prototype to review with modern operating systems. The design was almost identical to what we had drawn up but as I did not give any of my plans to them and the other person had died, they had to have come up with the plans on their own. Everything looked great, but was crap to operate. I had to essentially take it all apart and put it all back together to get the screws and fittings tight so the system would operate. After they started production I got a chance to look at another unit being brought into the US and it was actually worse because there were screws missing in addition to everything being loose. The fittings were all compression and there was no way they became loose rather than they were never tightened correctly. The company was bundled with another and sold to another Chinese company wanting to make a stab at the US market and they started doing all assembly in the US.

 

What you're describing is a common, notorious complaint about Chinese QC that has its roots in many places, starting with Chinese culture. Generally speaking, the Chinese, being the natural pragmatists that they are, tend to believe that real estate is a secure investment - "security" being another trait of pragmatism. This means that many Chinese factory owners would sometimes rush through foreign contracts in order to quickly convert their manufacturing profits into tangible real estate holdings. Because of this traditional, cultural trait, they don't necessarily spend their time developing their business relationships with their foreign customers, who are manufacturing their products in China, especially subcontractors. And if the factory owners, or subcontractors, have this "get rich quick" attitude, and are rushing to complete their orders, imagine the effect this would have on their workers where "speed", rather than "accuracy" is valued. Language miscommunication and misinterpretation is also a problem since instructions can easily be misunderstood, not only between English and Chinese speakers, but also between the speakers of different Chinese dialects who oftentimes come from different rural areas, and end up working together in one factory! There's a funny story I read where an American company ordered a toy to be produced in red, but then over time, started to receive them in orange instead. When the American company complained about the color difference, the factory replied: " You said you wanted it in "red", but you never said that you didn't want it in "orange"! I don't know how many years ago your experience was, but Chinese QC issues are being addressed more and more in China, as they begin to understand that accuracy and quality is just as important as speed, especially in order to keep their customers. I imagine if a country goes relatively quickly from a rural population to an industrial manufacturing powerhouse, that there's going to be quite a few "production bugs" that will need to be worked out along the way, and I think that China, for some time now, has been well on its way to doing just that. Again, multi-national businesses (the US included) with capital investments in China created this situation, so you can't really "blame" Chinese workers for this new economic reality.