I dont see how Clatyon would have ever annexed Archer Lodge. They dont have the money to run water and sewer out that far. They never would have annexed Riverwood if Fred Smith had not helped with the infrastructure. To get ToC out to AL, they would have had to have hired 5-8 more police and put a sub-station out there. Response time would have been to long. Same with fire and rescue though the FD at AL would have helped. Wendell may be closer but still there is a huge cost with running services out there and proably have to do the police like ToC would have. Remember, AL also runs back down Buffalo Road towards 42 a good bit. If Clayton and/or Wendell wanted to annex but said they would not run services out there, then there is no way the residents would have voted for it. Having to pay city taxes and fees and getting nothing in return? Would not have happened. Plus, once they did run services out there, neither can force the residence to hook up to them. It would have been for new development only and there is zero chance any services would have been run, and then sit there for years, potentially, before a new development was built and the services extended to that new development to start recouping costs. There really has been very little development going on in Archer Lodge, since they incorporated so ToC or Wendell would have spent a crapload of money for hardly any return. I dont think either would have ever annexed AL, at least not for many more years, if that.
Here's my second attempt. My first attempt was a blind one and ended up being three times the size of Clayton. That included the middle Creek shopping center and the Sheetz at 42 & Cornwalis. This version is still larger than Clayton, but that shouldn't come as any surprise since Cleveland School is one of the largest and most densely populated areas of unincorporated land in the state. I tried to use creeks, major highways and developed subdivisions (including those underway) as a guide. Kept 40/42 commercial in the mix as well as any other significant clusters of commercial property. This spans from 40/42 to the Cleveland School area proper and includes Cleveland Elementary, Middle and Westview Elementary, but excludes Polenta and Cleveland High School. Based on photography alone this seems to be a good economic mix of property as well even though the further you get out of this area you see newer, more expensive homes like Adam's Point, Kyndal, etc. but it is hard to justify expanding that far.
I don't like that one, my house is in it. That will probably be one of the problems with doing this, so many people chose to live here because it was not in the city limits, and not having to pay city taxes, I am not a fan at all of incorporating, and not just because my house is in this map.
Who exactly in that map is going to benefit from being incorporated? What will you offer that is not already there? That map is highly incomplete as far as existing houses go. A big chunk of it is already developed.
That is up to those who are inside the limits to decide, but you can probably throw out a few possibilities such as a parks and rec dept for all the kiddies, contracted trash service, police protection, full time fire/ems. You can argue these are already there (except parks), but not fully and not at full representation. The map is 'highly incomplete' because it was pared down to half it's size from what actually makes the most sense, which is to include everyone who identifies with this immediate area from Polenta to Hwy 50. That would make it at 17 square miles (Clayton is only 13) and put it on par with Havelock, Mathews, and Lumberton. The picture above was only 11 sq miles. If you were to add all of the undeveloped land around the area, you be looking at creating something bigger than Salisbury or Chapel Hill from the word 'go'.
So basically, you argue incorporating just for sake of incorporating. I still haven't heard of the benefits. People who grew up here and actually went to Cleveland, whether elementary or high, were from Cleveland, Mcgees Crossroad, or the Old Drugstore. 3 different communities. If you draw a circle big enough to encompass all, we'll be huge.
People are moving here for a reason, and I doubt the reason is that they hope it becomes a town or city some day. This area is not country as you said, but it is not urban either. Some people will never be satisfied with leaving things the way they are I guess.
I will lead off by saying I agree that it would've been years off at best before any other town attempted to annex parts of AL, and it is doubtful all of AL would have been annexed if any happened at all (but ToC's ETJ does extend almost to ToAL town limits, so who knows.) I am also a lifelong AL resident. I am simply providing some counter points for the sake of conversation. Water is already in most of AL. Not sure what would be required for ToC or ToW to take it over from JoCo if they were so inclined, but the infrastructure is already in place. Sewer would be more difficult sure, but not impossible. Police and fire response can be handled via contracts with SO and ALFD, at least initially. Riverwood Athletic Club is currently covered by ALFD via contract, and has been for many years. And CPD officers are in the RAC/Pritchard Road area regularly. As for voting for annexation, it wasn't that long ago that forced annexation was a legal and highly used tactic. Not necessarily by ToC or ToW (at least to my knowledge), but it could have been used by either. Finally, residential growth is happening in the ToAL. It was slow to start, but I can think of 7-8 new subdivisions in town limits since incorporation. Would I classify that as very little? Well, that's subjective, but I wouldn't say it's a lot. However, there is a LOT of residential growth happening in the area/community/fire district of AL. Will the ToAL make moves to annex this new development? Maybe, maybe not. But if there was no ToAL would the growth be on ToC or ToW radar? I'm sure it would be.
When you really think about, who is to say that all us rookies can put together a better town government than Clayton anyway. What would be so bad about just living tax free until then, and if it don't happen, so be it. There ain't nothing a town offers that I would be interested in paying another grand a year for anyway. Don't forget about our less fortunate neighbors who just don't have the money, those people do exist, their situation is equally as important as someone who wants more lights on streets, and more traffic stops, and more government waste.
Please, in simple terms, explain the benefits of incorporation in that map. Feel free to use abc's, 123's, or bullet points.
The costs seem to outweigh the benefits at this point, plus I don't want a sewer since I'd have to pay for my water! If you want some Park and Rec type services for the kiddies why don't you ask Cleveland Community College to expand some summer programs like they do at The Clayton Center. That building could serve the Cleveland community better than it does now, without incorporation.
I believe that GCAA does a really good job now. In the small town I grew up in, which was about 10 minutes from here, there was no parks and rec. This area has one of the best in the county, I would guess..
Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? If it needs to stay the way it is and people will never be satisfied then why does it keep growing? Some of our own commissioners have stated in the past that the area needs to incorporate because it is getting too difficult for the County to properly support it. However, the County cannot instigate said incorporation.
Then, you're not listening. When you incorporate, you need to provide at least three services. My vote is parks and rec, sewer, and police, and possibly planning/zoning board.
The Clayton Center is paid for by tax dollars. The Cleveland Community College does not run the programs for the kiddies, GCAA does and either uses or leases the land. Regardless, it is tax dollars. If you want to expand those program, you need more money. GCAA runs on a shoestring budget every year and is managed by a volunteer board that can barely get it done from year to year. Some years it can be a real mess because there is no dedicated staff. For that...you would need TAX DOLLARS.
GCAA gets by, in my opinion. Having been involved the last few years I would say that I am amazed they have not folded by now. That is most likely due to the sheer number of people who live out here. There is something to be said for their continued existence, but it can be a real mess some years.
It keeps growing because of the way it is, some people who are never satisfied refers to people who want to change it from the way it is to a town. I don't see the contradiction.
Why sewer? Most of the area is septic, leave it. I would add fire considering fire already exists and you covered both fire stations already in this map. Fire district can cover more than the incorporated area. Look at both Clayton and Smithfield for reference. http://www.johnstonnc.com/files/gis/pdf/COUNTY_FireDistrict_9914_62916.pdf
1. We have GCAA. You want everyone to pay whether they use it or not. I personally have donated more of my material than they have paid for. Same for the local high schools. What about childless families, farmers, or tract owners who have little to no impact on rec? 2. We have water and sewer in many areas. Would we build new infrastructure or just double charge so we could pay the county to continue? I'm not sure where the Cleveland river or reservoir is. Maybe we could name our town Creek Water. 3. I see sheriff deputies everywhere I go. 4. Planning/zoning sounds a lot like NIMBY. What about the old folks that still own acreage? Should you handicap their retirement because they held onto their land. Its not hard for farmers to exceed the taxes of 1 lot.
While JCC Cleveland does not currently run "programs for the kiddies", as you say, their classes could include Early Education, curriculum-based, programs to not only provide education credits for students in the Early Education field, but also to serve the population of local children as well. It would be a "win-win" situation for the community without the need for additional tax dollars, or incorporation. Unfortunately, JCC Cleveland has not changed their programs all that much to address the needs of our growing, and changing community. They still continue to focus on entry-level, trade courses, GED classes, personal and retiree enrichment classes, but should at this point, start to think a little bit more creatively about their future direction. I would also like to see more undergraduate, core education classes moved there as well so that our local high school graduates could complete their 2-year degrees inexpensively, before moving on. We have 2 high schools in the area whose graduating students could certainly benefit from these changes.
