Faith-based special plates deemed UNCONSTITUTIONAL in NC

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
...the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Matthew 4:1, 4:8-9

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And now, for my story and my experience with the NC General Assembly...

The NC DMV has a long list of special license plates to choose from that represent all kinds of groups and organizations.

Here’s a link to their site to view the various plates:
https://edmv-sp.dot.state.nc.us/sp/SpecialPlates?serviceType=EXP&fM=Y

Note: special plates are ones that you pay extra for and make a special effort to obtain for your vehicle because you WANT to be associated with that particular group.

If you don’t like the current crop of plates offered by the DMV, or want to get a special plate approved for your group, chances are you will be able to find a state legislator to sponsor your plate/group and it will be approved.

Here’s a quote from a Jan. 2007, N&O article about special plates:

There's no legal limit to the number or subject of special plates. But any group that wants one has to find a supportive state lawmaker to push it through a willing General Assembly.

So the Ku Klux Klan, Nazis or other controversial groups wouldn't have much luck, said state Sen. Tony Rand, a Fayetteville Democrat who has sponsored military-theme tags, dance tags, NASCAR tags and this year's 13 new ones.

"So long as it's not offensive, anybody who could come up with at least 300, I expect, would be waved on through," Rand said.
(Link: http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/politicians/legislature/story/527790.html)

(By the way, earlier this year I personally took my special plate request down to Sen. Rand’s office and to this day I haven’t heard one peep from him or his staff.)

I had two state senators and various representatives say they loved my design and thought it would be a big hit in the state.

I even had folks down at the DMV office excitedly waiting for a chance to buy my plate for themselves. I would have met the 300 minimum pre-order requirement in no time at all.

When a supportive state senator took my idea to the staff lawyers at the General Assembly in Bill Drafting he got this response, “UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!”, they shouted from the rooftops.

Here’s two versions I had in mind that caused such an uproar. I had a 3rd version with John 3:16 at the top instead of the other two inscriptions.


But, wait, I'm confused.

Doesn’t NC have a special plate now that has "In God We Trust" on it? Isn't that a "faith-based" plate?

We sure do.

How'd that happen?

Well, the lawyers say that phrase has been around so long, it's on our money and it's on alot of buildings and it's just for this ONE time. So we'll let this “In God We Trust” plate slide on by.

How about a faith-based PERSONALIZED tag?

No problem the lawyers say. Just submit your request through the DMV and as long as it isn't patently offensive, and meets their guidelines, it'll be approved.

You mean I can have John 3:16 on a PERSONALIZED tag?

Yep, matter of fact it's already taken. ANY scripture verse reference is OK.

How about JESUS on a personalized plate?

That’s OK, but it’s already taken by another NC driver.

Well, how about John 3:16 on a SPECIAL plate?

NO WAY! “UNCONSTITUTIONAL” bellow the lawyers.

How are my plates a problem, I asked?

Because the General Assembly would have to VOTE on the special plate for approval and that would be endorsing a particular religion or faith and that would just be unconstitutional.

Well, wait just a minute.

Didn't the General Assembly have to vote to give the Dept of Motor Vehicles authority to approve faith-based personalized tags?

Well, that's just different I'm told.

Here’s why I think personalized tags get a pass.

A personalized tag can only be made ONCE for one particular owner, and, even with creative spelling, you can only come up with so many faith-based versions of Jesus, God, Bible verses, and other faith-based slogans and phrases.

With a popular faith-based plate, you could have thousands of them on vehicles across the state.

The message I get from Jones Street is: promote just about anything and just about any group you want as long as it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Just an observation on my part: the Masons have five special plates you can pick from with three of them referring to "Temples" printed right on the plate.

Hold on a sec, doesn't "Temple" allude to some sort of "faith-based" requirement?

And, don’t you have to profess a belief in “a supreme being” as a candidate for the Masonry?

How'd they get approved?

Because the Masons are classified as a “fraternal” organization I’m told.

Oh, I see.

By the way, why couldn't the General Assembly transfer all special license plate authority over to the NC DMV?

That way there wouldn't have to be any votes on a particular plate. If a special plate met the guidelines, then the DMV would approve the plate, it’s that simple.

Sounds like a simple solution to me. Maybe I'm too naive.

Oh, by the way, several new special plates have been approved this year, but a “CHOOSE LIFE” special plate that was proposed never saw the light of day.

CHOOSE LIFE! Can you believe it? That didn't get approved. It didn't even make it out of committee to get on the floor for a vote.

There are quite a few states that have approved their own "Choose Life" version, but NOT NC!

Incidently, what party is in power in the NC General Assembly? Democrats.

Who controls the committee that oversees approval of special plates? A Democrat.

What powerful state Senator tried to get rid of all the bibles in the General Assembly? A Democrat. (But that story is another subject all together.)

Reread the scripture verse at the top. See any correlation?

This topic may end up being just a big “Who cares?” item, but my time with the NC General Assembly was an eye-opening experience.

Kent

 

My question is this? Would you be supportive of a plate that reads "In Sh"allah" or "Allahu Akbar"on it? Translated, they mean "In God's Hands" or "God is Great".

Suppose a religious group that is outside your comfort zone wishes to promote their belief. Are they also supportable?

My point is that advocacy can become a slippery slope. I am not attacking your religious belief. I do hope that responses will not misconstrue this.

 

Why not? If someone wanted a "special plate" that read "God Is Dead", if the people wanted it, fine.

Yet another example of the old adage "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Liberals believe that it's their way or no way and apply that belief to everyone else. Just because your group (liberals) doesn't allow people to have their own opinions, doesn't mean our group (conservatives) feels the same way.

 

Not true.

 

This makes me happy. Most of these specialty plates work as charitable donations with the state splitting some of the revnue with the charity or organization the plates support, don't they?

...so this would in fact be unconstitutional since it would take a tax payer funded governement agency and require them to offer a revenue stream for faith based organizations.

 

Hatteras6: excellent point and I don't feel slighted. I was expecting some response. Here's my take on your point.

Currently, the state has set a 300 pre-paid order minimum for most special plates before the DMV will start stamping them out for sale. I would have no problem with a 1,000+ minimum for plates such as mine.

As for the "God is Great", etc, I'd be all for that, too, but not in Arabic. This is the US of A.

Also, keep in mind, the NC Highway Patrol has to approve all plates for readability. I doubt they'd be too happy with anything not in English.

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Clif: I wouldn't be for a "God is Dead" plate. First off it's not true. God is very much alive and all around us. Always has, always will be.

Also, it goes back to the statement that Sen. Rand made about not having plates available for the KKK, Nazi Party, and groups of that ilk.

There is a point where you have to say NO.

What is that point one may ask? Well, it's like the old adage, "What is pornography?" I'll know it when I see it.

I don't think we should wring our hands and try to anticipate what the lowest common denominator in our society will try to do.

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Harvey: by the way, your avatar makes me laugh everytime I see it. No fair in softening me up before I even write.

Your argument was one of the ones I heard most often from those opposed to my plate.

My response was I didn't have a group I was trying to support. Take whatever money is made from the plate and allocate it for upkeep of the State Parks, roadside beautification, a children's hospital, and any number of worthwhile projects that would benefit everyone in the state.

Charge whatever is necessary to cover the cost of the plates, which is what's done now I'm sure.
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ALL: how about the "Choose Life" plate. Do you have the same arguments for that one as a faith-based plate?

Kent

 

Kent,

thanks for your reply. Your point about readability of a foreign language was something that I completely overlooked. I thank you for pointing that out.

What is it about the saying in Arabic that is offputting? And, yes, although it is the USA, English is not the official language.

If a plate was in English lettering, but contravenes one's heartfelt belief, would that be permissible?

Suppose that a plate was above the required minimum, but was a message with which you don't support? Should there be a plate for that?

As for your question about the choose life plate, Kent, I admit my ignorance as to whether or not there exists a plate for "Choice". If it does not, would this be permitted?

 

Are you sure about that? Generally, there is an organization that promotes the special plates and gets part of the extra money you have to pay to get them. I know the Friends of the Great Smoky Mountains gets some of what I pay for my Smoky Mountains tag, and here's a story about another special tag (one that Kent mentioned earlier in this thread).

Speaking of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, if I recall correctly the state at first refused their request because of the Confederate flag in their symbol, and they took it to court and won. It seems to me like a free speech issue. If the state is going to allow some organizations to promote themselves with special license plates, I don't think they should be able to pick and choose which organizations can and cannot do that.

 

How about "Allah is Great"? (English spelling, not Farsi)

There are very few "English" words. Most of what we call English are words that have come from other languages. "Jesus", for example, is actually the Greek pronunciation of Christ's name (which, in Hebrew, is more closely aligned with Joshua).

Short of absolute proof (sadly lacking, hence the need for faith), that's merely an opinion.

Those plate would not be approved, not because they are false, but because they are politically incorrect. There was an "adopt a highway" in Georgia which was sponsored by the KKK. They were forced to take it down because the public did not approve. So much for free speech.

 

It wasn't a statement. It was a question. I wouldn't expect you to have that firm of a grasp over punctuation judging by your posts.

As far as whether or not the money goes to faith based organizations, or state parks, it would still be government sponsoring religion of some sort by way of adevertising/promotion. I am pretty sure most of the other groups that have plates are a non-profit of some sort and , if not, promote some kind of awareness to a state sponsored initiative such as anti-litter campaigns.

 

Harvey: I proposed this to one of the staff lawyers down at the General Assembly: "Let's say I start up a 501c3 non-profit group that is called "John 3:16". Our logo would be a cross on red background like the one I have posted. Would we be able to get a special plate through?

Probably not, was the response.
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Hatteras6: give me some examples of some plates you have in mind and I'll give you my opinion on whether I'd support it.

Are there any plates that you would NOT approve?

No, there was not a "Choice" or "Pro Choice" plate proposed, just "Choose Life".

Of course, the better wording for the "Choice" crowd would be "Choose Death" or "Pro Abortion" but they don't like to use those.

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Clif: I would have no problem with "Allah is Great".

I doubt the KKK in Georgia had roadside cleanliness on their mind. They just wanted to take advantage of that program to promote their racist group. I would oppose ANY attempt by the KKK, or similar group to promote their group or ideas.

 

Cliff: you mentioned about the lack of proof that God exists. Not knowing your spiritual beliefs, here's an interesting argument I found:

Sometimes atheists assert that there is no proof that God exists. The only problem is that an atheist cannot logically make that claim.

In order to state that there is no proof for God's existence, the atheist would have to know all alleged proofs that exist in order to then state that there is no proof for God's existence. But, since he cannot know all things, he cannot logically state there is no proof for God's existence.

At best, an atheist can only state that of all the alleged proofs he has seen thus far, none have worked. He could even say that he believes there are no proofs for God's existence. But then, this means that there is the possibility that there is a proof or proofs out there and that he simply has not yet encountered one.

Nevertheless, if there was a proof that truly did prove God's existence, would the atheist be able to accept it given that his presuppositions are in opposition to the existence of God?

In other words, given that the atheist has a presuppositional base that there is no God, in order for him to accept a proof for God's existence, he would have to change his presuppositional base. This is not easy to do and would involve a major paradigm shift in the belief structure of the atheist.

Therefore, an atheist is presuppositionally hostile to any proofs for God's existence and is less likely to be objective about such attempted proofs.

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The BC comic strip had a great cartoon one time. It read: "What does a dead Christian, a dead agnostic and a dead atheist have in common? They all know there IS a God."

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And I know there is a God because I was there when I asked Him into my heart at the age of 15, and He's been there ever since.

Kent

 

Well, Mafiaman, I was just asking a question, not saying you were wrong!

 

Ok, so you will oppose any group whose beliefs you disagree with?

 

Wonder what would have happened if you had gone in and stated your request for a tag saying something like "Allah Lives" wearing a turban with your wife wearing a dress to her toes and a shawl covering her face?

Bet we'd already be seeing those plates now. Makes me sick!

 

LOVE it!!!! So true!!!

 

But we don't need "proof" that would satisfy anyone else.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

A thing that can be proven does not require faith.

 

Cliff: Same question to you? Give me a group name.

ANY is a big word.

But, yes, I would oppose ANY group along the lines of the KKK, Nazi Party, Skin Heads, street gangs of any race, terrorist organizations, etc.
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MommySAIDno: that was funny! If I had tried that I'd probably had my bill passed before I left the building that very day.

Kent

 

OK. But you boys need to learn to get along with each other! :mrgreen:

 

KDsGrandma: that was a good post.

Jesus quit doing miracles in some towns because of their lack of faith. They would always want something a little more spectacular.

It took the Hebrews no time at all to start grumbling and griping about their time in the wilderness even when God provided everything they needed.

Kent