Who said they are special? A book they presented to the world? If God wanted them to have that land, why did he allow them to be kicked out of it so many times? Hey guess what? I have a piece of paper that says I am king of the world. It was written by God (well, dictated by God and actually written by my great uncle). You may now spend the next two hours bowing before me.
since you agree 100%, I will ask you the same question. Who said they are special? A book they presented to the world? If God wanted them to have that land, why did he allow them to be kicked out of it so many times? Hey guess what? I have a piece of paper that says I am king of the world. It was written by God (well, dictated by God and actually written by my great uncle). You may now spend the next two hours bowing before me.
Hey Clif, I guess it all depends on which side you stand on; either you believe that the Bible is the true, written Word of God or you believe it is a book written out of the ideas of man. If God inspired the writing and all that is in it then it is true and you and anyone else who are against it and against His people are fighting against God Himself. And I'll quote a reliable source on this one, Acts 5:34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." The bible has stood the test of time and the tests of man and come out smelling like a rose. Because it is true even if you don't beleive it is. Oh, the reason why God allowed "His People" to get kicked out of their land so often is pretty simple... they stopped following Him and He had to teach them a hard lesson. Kinda of the lesson that America is and will be learning. There are consequences to doing the wrong thing and turning our back on God. We've been pushing God out of our country for a many years now, so should we be surprised when He doesn't come to our rescue when we need Him. We told Him to, "Get out!!" Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord... could you turn that around, "Cursed is the nation whose God isn't the Lord..." We seem to have plenty of replacement God's in America today. But I guess we will find out in the end. If I am wrong I die and decay in the ground, no biggie. If you are wrong Clif, you will be judged by a God you didn't follow. A God who wanted to have a relationship with you. A God that loved you enough to take the punishment for your wrong choices. I wish you would give God an honest try Clif. Pastor G
Actually I think it's a bit of both. I believe that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I also believe that, ultimately, man put pen to paper, and a group of men decided what to include in the Bible and what to exclude. The Bible, if it were the true word of God, would have no error in it, and yet I can point to several direct contradictions that may well be accidental slips of the pen, but are errors none the less. I do not believe that God is so unfair and unjust that He would put one group of people above all others. The "Chosen People" means that they were to be the line from which Jesus would be brought to the Earth to walk as a man. It was never intended to be a declaration that the Jewish people could name their desires and they would be granted to the exclusion of all others.
Clif, We could go back and forth about the supposed "errors" in the bible, of which I could probably dispel 90% of them by giving you deeper insite into the original meanings of the text and culteral differences. But even more important is an understanding that Jesus did not only come to offer life to His "chosen people" but also open His favor up to us who have been grafted in with the Jews. God doesn't play favorites. In fact His Word declares that He wishes that none should parish but that all would come to repentance (and salvation). Before I came to know Jesus I was an atheist. I held the same beliefs about the Bible. But when I opened my heart and studied the Word of God deeper I found for myself that it's true and withour error. I guess the biggest evidence has been the change I've experienced in my life. That no one can deny. Clif, I've found that no one finds God with their head. We can not understand such an amazing God. Again God's word tells us in Jeremiah that we will find Him when we seek him with all our "heart". Experience happens with your heart and understanding follows with your head. Consider it Clif. Pastor G
Pastor G, So if you believe in the Bible you should give the Israelis a walk, let them do whatever they wish because they are the chosen? Being a non-Christian in this secular country I have a problem with that.
I'm not talking about esoteric errors, I'm talking about where one chapter where is says that Josiah's successor was Shallum and another where it says his successor was Jehoahaz. Or how Judas dies, was it by hanging or by falling down with his guts bursting out? Even if it were a simple matter of missing a zero in counting years or children of one of the prophets, the fact remains that it is an error and it is in the Bible. Did God make the error? No, He didn't. Man did, which proves my point that the Bible may be the inspired word of God, but it was man, with his foibles and his prejudices that ultimately put pen to paper. You are getting away from the point at hand, which is the Jewish people declaring that they are better because they are "God's chosen people". I agree with you, but tell that to the Jewish people. I was raised in a very religious family and took Jesus as my personal savior when I was still a teenager. However, I have read the Bible several times and know that there are discrepancies and curiosities throughout. Rather than take it at face value and blindly accept it, I have become critical of those who use it to shield their own vices. The God I know is kind, loving and generous, He is not hateful, vengeful, or fearsome. What He wants us to know He will tell us. He will not have some human write it in a book full of riddles, innuendos, and complications, not to mention contradictions and fallacies. If God wants you to understand, He is fully capable of seeing that you do.
Hught, I'm not saying that the Jews should not be held accountable for doing wrong just like anyone else. God holds us all to the same standard, even the Jews. Clif, Seems like you have drawn your own conclusions. Granted there are things in the Word of God that I still don't fully understand but I live by faith not full understanding. BTW, you said "What He wants us to know He will tell us. He will not have some human write it in a book full of riddles, innuendos, and complications, not to mention contradictions and fallacies." Again, it all comes down to where you stand... I believe our very loving God DID tell us what He wants us to know. In His Sovereignty He chose to use people writing a book as the vehicle to get us the message. Only after I came to God with an open mind and a willingness to learn did I begin to understand the bible which before made no sense. Again, approaching God with my heart and then my head. Again, Clif... what if you're wrong? What if you'll be judged according to the book you claim is a fake? Don't you think you better investigate if it is possible it all might be true? I would... it's logical. Pastor G
And you haven't? Then why did he allow those same men to insert errors? And why is he allowing that book to be used to "prove" that the Jewish people are better than the Muslim people? I don't know, it would seem to me that God wouldn't want His word to be muddied to the point where only a select few can claim to know the meaning. Don't you think it's a bit odd that God wanted you to know His word and yet you, yourself, state that you don't fully understand it? Do you really believe a kind and loving God would want His people to be confused over the meaning of His word? What if you are wrong? What if you have devoted your whole life to a God that is nothing like what you read in the Bible? Same difference. Are you really saying that it's logical for God to want us to know Him by reading a book that has so many inconsistencies? If I read a history book and in the first chapter it says that Columbus "discovered" America in 1492 then in the next chapter it says that Columbus "discovered" America in 1776, do I trust the history book? Would you? If there is one contradiction that you can see, how many exist that you are of yet unaware? Reminds me of a joke... One day, two monks were in the vaults of the monastery going through the old scrolls. "You see, there are the originals," said the first monk. "All the new scrolls were copied from these." "Can I see one?" "Sure. This is one outlines the rules for monkdom--" All of a sudden, the monk's face turns white and he falls to his knees. "What? What does it say?" "Celebrate. IT SAYS CELEBRATE!"
Clif, Cute joke. It's pretty clear we both have drawn our conclusions. I don't believe I need to have it "all" figured out to understand the basics. The basics I have down... they are not hard to understand or hard to find in the Word of God. God loves us and sent His Son Jesus as a way for us to escape the judgement for our imperfect choices (sins). Even if I am totally wrong, I hold no regrets. I have a wonderful life. I have many friends, a wonderful wife and kids that love me and that I love. No regrets at all. If I had continued down the road I was on before I would've been died from alcohol and drugs. So I made a choice. And in the end I believe that choice will come with reward. How's your life Clif? Do you live with hope and peace and joy? Do you feel like you have a purpose in life or do you just exist as a result of a cosmic accident? Oh BTW, the reason why the Jewish God views the Jews as the "Chosen People" is because they serve the Jewish God. The reason the Muslims aren't the chosen people to the Jewish God is because they don't serve the Jewish God. The Muslim people split off from the Jews when Ishmael decided to go his own way and follow after different gods. Pastor G
Very good. The "basics" are the commandments (I prefer the two that Jesus enumerated. They are the same as the ten, but easier to remember). Now the problem is the middle east conflict is not based on the basics, it's based on the esoterics, which you admit you don't get.
From a man who will argue about his belief in a REAL Santa Claus. Sorry Clif, but it's hard to take anything you say about the Bible to heart after having that discussion with you.
Not Clif, but I get tired of folks assuming that if you haven't bought into this religion thing that you couldn't possibly enjoy life. Actually since I realized what was going on: Other than my Wife's taste in TV shows, I would have to say pretty good! With my personal life? Yes Outside my circle of control? No Yes, to make the world a better place.
Then don't. Unlike some (No, I'm not referring to pastor_g or even you), I don't insist that you believe what I believe. I have my faith you have yours. If you want to know about mine, feel free to ask, I'll be more than happy to tell you. But if it's not appealing to you, then you are free to believe what you want.
