Someone please show me where any of this benefits MIDDLE CLASS. Sounds to me like it's more welfare for low-income families and more taxes to be paid by MIDDLE CLASS families to pay for it. Why doesn't Edwards just assign us each a "low income" person and let us at least claim them as a damned dependent. Please...PLEASE make sure we don't get any of these socialist, income-redistributing liberals into the white house in 2008...PLEASE. Those of us who are truly middle class are going to be the new poor...and the low-income will be living high on the hog as they buy their SUVs and big screen TVs with our tax money.
This is the ONE issue that I disagree with when it comes to Edwards. Disagree may be a strong word, so I really mean to say is that he takes it too far. I believe there is an income gap and that contributes to many of our societal ills such as crime, lack of education, etc. One way to look at it is if you can correct these ills by supporting more people financially via goverment programs and this has an effect that lowers crime, etc...would you? Look at it like social security and medicaid. You've been paying into that for years and the sole purpose is to take care of fellow americans when they need it. I don't necessarily beleive in handouts for the sake of handouts, that is why stuff like forgiving tax on interest for low income families makes sense because it encourages them to save (if they can save in the first place). I don't like the something for nothing progams, but there are measures in place to make people meet you half way these programs and not entirely bad.
Sounds like communism to me!!!! How does that work out in the end. Let me understand. I have one group that is "disadvantaged" so I will take it from "regular" people and it will even out. Yep that will cause no ill will or harm. What about the individual person. Cavemen had it right. Go out and kill something and drag it home not wait in cave until "government" brings it to me.
No. Give better reason why one should except perhaps for the physically/mentality handicaped. Giving has never produced anything in those determined to receive at our expense except a further determination to receive ....and crime. Don't be naive. Who is going to pay for all this socialism you bellieve we should all have except YOU ...and ME. When it reaches critical mass the nation will cease to exist and go the way of Europe or worse. Read the newspapers for how much worse is possible. No way will they save. They still won't be able to. Have you been watching the prices of goods and services? More and more people are becoming poverty stricken and thus in need of the programs you wish to see implemented.... And the beat goes. Point is, all to few of them can even begin to meet you half way.... thanks to the liberal thinking of todays politicians looking to stay/get in office. The poor are consumers. They don't produce. Ergo, they don't save. Thanks to liberalism [socialist mindset of self-serving greedy politicians who buy their votes] they are made dependent of upon the gov' dole.
Pimpin in a Lexus collecting a gov't check and living in an old beat down trailer (not a mobile home). Gotta love the system! :roll:
Where have you been? Still some sort of philosophical-wizard-weirdo, huh? You know there were many economically disadvantaged people (poor people) during the great depression and the world wars. These were rural and urban dwellers and our government created all kinds of programs, some work programs and some straight up welfare. Many of these programs are viewed as what lifted this country out of a deep economic slump and created a superpower. I hate to break it to you, but you're already paying for what you call socialism. I call it taxes. Your money is already going to the poor, or the greater good. I don't have kids. Does that mean my taxes shouldn't go to the public schools. Those damn kids are worthless freeloaders! No, my money goes to educate children so they become productive members of society. Is this socialism? Exactly why they need help. Would you rather see them left behind. I thought you were all churchy and stuff? This makes no sense. I think you have this backwards. Being a producer/consumer has nothing to do with saving. The poor are usually not considered consumers, because...wait for it...they don't have the money. Instead, they often work the low paying jobs that produce the goods and services the rich consume. I agree that there are many freeloaders out there, but that has nothing to do with the well intentioned government trying to help its own people. It has more to do with the person who is freeloading and lack of education and upbringing. Ask yourself... what are the consequences of ending this cycle?
There has always BEEN an income gap and there will always BE an income gap. The only way to avoid that is to have everyone have the same income based on the number of people in your household, and keep everyone there. Then, limit how much they can save or invest. The govt will do your grocery shopping so you can't be frugal, and they'll just deliver your standard groceries based on how many family members you have. They'll buy your car for you, your house for you and your clothes for you...because if they don't, some may choose less expensive cars, homes or wardrobes and have extra money that other's don't have. If somone invents something or an idea, they don't get paid for it. Etc. Of course, then nothing will ever get done and we'll all die because no one will have any motivation or incentive to get any work done or to invent new things and ideas. No one would want to do the hard jobs that require lots of education or back-breaking labor, such as doctors and farmers - because why would anyone want to work harder while our neighbor does next to nothing for the same amt of money. We have income gaps because some people rise to the top and some don't. It's human nature. All species have heirarchy...human heirarchy happens to center around ambition, intelligence and currency. In the animal kingdom, it happens to center around those who are bigger, stronger and most successful at reproduction. Funny, I don't see any species in the animal kingdom have the strongest males hold back from mating so the little runt gets a chance. And I don't see them forcing their offspring to eat less so that the pride of lions a mile away will have food for their offspring. Instead, what you see are the strongest males getting the females and the parents fiercely guarding the kill so that it benefits their offspring to the hilt, not their neighbor's offspring. There's a reason for this. In these days and times of affirmative action, special free and low-cost education and training programs based on race and income, special provisions for minority companies, etc...there is no reason other than personal choice, for someone not to get where they want. The problem is that some don't have the "want". They don't want to make the effort. What happens if you hand out more from the public kitty to people who happen to contribute less? You end up with more people contributing less. Which is exactly what we have now. And those lesser contributors for some reason keep thinking they deserve even MORE than they are getting.
Very few were straight up welfare programs. Most all were work programs. You don't work, you don't eat. Indeed. I call it the same. That's a matter of opinion. What I do know is what I see. What I see is higher crime from those who receive my taxes ... and yours, I might add. So much for your "greater good" mentality. I don't have kids either and no I don't want to support a KNOWN failed system of education. How come the home schooled have higher SAT's, HMMM? That is just warped speak from you intended to obscure your socialistic bent. However, I will excuse you unless it is willful ignorance or your part. Yeah, "and stuff". You don't even bother to find out what "stuff" it is you accuse me of. And the smart ones save a little. Unfortunately with such needs as they have, usually brought about by so-o-o many kids to feed, there aren't many that can. Thank God for faith based organisations who step in to help out even when they are taken advantage of by the freeloaders. Show me the well intentioned government, one without agenda, and I'll back off. What makes you be so naive to think that our government, regardless of how well intentioned or whoever gets into office, is going to able to put this "back in the bottle". It's too late. You can't get rid of entitlements once enacted ... and there are more of them coming. Who will pay? ........ YOU! ...... and me, sorry to say. Maybe you like that. I don't, especially when the desired results will never be forthcoming.
Just a few points: 1. Despite the title of this thread, nothing you have mentioned increases taxes on the middle class. 2. The $250.00 exclusion for interest, capital gains, and dividends applies to all taxpayers. It's not a lot, and probably most low-income families do not have even $250 a year in those types of income. The benefit of that will go to higher income families more than lower income - both because the higher income family is more likely to have at least that much income, and because obviously the higher the tax bracket a person is in, the greater the benefit. 3. The child care credit is now available to taxpayers in all income brackets. A few years ago, it used to phase out for middle income taxpayers, but not any more. For the 2006 tax year, the tax credit is 35% of child care expenses for taxpayers with less than $15,000 of adjusted gross income, and it gradually decreases to 20% for taxpayers with AGI $43,000 and up, with no limit on AGI. 4. On the earned income tax credit, you make reference to "people who aren't paying taxes." I challenge you to show me someone who doesn't pay taxes. Low income people may not pay income tax, but all wage earners pay social security tax. Everybody pays a variety of taxes on both the federal and state level, and sometimes local - gas tax, telephone tax, sales tax, property tax, excise taxes on various items. Lower income people, in fact, pay a higher percentage of their total income in these other taxes than do higher income people. The earned income tax credit refunds a portion of these other taxes to people who are working for a living, at low wage jobs. I believe it was President Nixon who initiated the earned income tax credit, to refund part or all of the FICA tax, as an incentive for people to work. Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. ~ Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
How come it is becoming more and more uncivilized ... partly as a result of those same taxes that keep getting more and more oppressive? Obviously, the redistribution of wealth and the increase of social programs is not the answer.
The problem with nay-sayers on helping the poor is that they have never been in the shoes of a hard working American who just happens to have fallen in the poor slot. Your position is called greed, selfishness and a lack of compassion. Most of you in that position pushed a war that has cost us $4.75 billion so far, yet you can't see giving a few bucks to poor people. That makes sence.
Has there ever been such a vote? an actual vote on this? If so, I would have. Religion is NOT the answer to societal ills. Let's all stop paying taxes and let god take care of everything. No thanks. Religion has created a whole mess of societal ills over the years and most faith based organizations that help the poor usually demand a small price...conversion. Besides what does this have to do with the topic of taxes. Keep your religion out of my life and my government.
Really? Where do you think the money will come from to pay for each of the $500.00 savings match for low-income people, KD? Where do you think the money will come from for the "boost" in the child care credit for low-income people? Where do you think the money will come from to pay the Triple Earned Income credit to people who aren't paying INCOME taxes in the first place? Why do liberals think money grows on trees? Which is pretty much what I said, KD. The fact is that an exclusion for $250.00 in interest and capital gains is not going to "benefit" anyone. Low income people don't have money to invest and those that do have the kind of money to be able to invest, well...an exclusion for taxes on $250.00 in interest and gains isn't going to make a dent in those that receive interest and gains. Edwards claimed this would help middle class taxpayers...and it doesn't. Do you realize how much it costs for Daycare KD? And do you realize that there is a dollar limit on how much in day care expenses one can claim? Let's say you have a family that has both parents working full time, and they pay daycare for 2 kids - ages 2 and 4. They will be paying about $1400 to $1800 a month for daycare. Multiply that by one year, and their daycare costs will be about $67,000 and up. And WOW...they get to claim a whole 20% of a whopping $6000 of that, which is about $1200.00. So...they pay $67,000 in daycare but only get a tax credit of $1200.00. Yeah, that's real helpful. And here's the kicker. Many low-income folks don't pay for day care. They get child-care subsidies. Middle class folks don't get that...they pay for all of it out of their own pockets. Get the picture? Again, Edwards claimed this would help middle class taxpayers and it won't. I meant income taxes, and you know I meant income taxes. Stop playing word games, KD. "During 2006, Tax Foundation economists estimate that roughly 43.4 million tax returns, representing 91 million individuals, will face a zero or negative tax liability. That's out of a total of 136 million federal tax returns that will be filed. Adding to this figure the 15 million households and individuals who file no tax return at all, roughly 121 million Americans—or 41 percent of the U.S. population—will be completely outside the federal income tax system in 2006.1 This total includes those who pay no tax, and those who pay some tax upfront and are later refunded the full amount of the tax paid or more." http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1410.html Irrelevant. Social Security taxes wouldn't pay the $500.00 savings distribution to low income people that Edwards is talking about, now would it? And it won't pay into the kitty that is supposed to pay this "tripled" earned income credit either. And those taxes go towards other things. Gas tax, property tax etc, are state taxes, KD. That does not go towards Federal goodies like $500.00 to a low income family for savings. What?!?! That's so convoluted I don't know where to start. If low income people are in a lower tax bracket and often pay no taxes at all...how are they paying a higher percentage of their total income?
You speak of that which you obviously know nothing about. Many...MANY of us "nay-sayers" have indeed been in the position of being a member of the class of the "working poor". However, we worked hard to get outselves out of that class - which is how it should work. And many of us nay-sayers tried to get that assistance temporarily when we needed it - after putting into the kitty for years - and were denied because we weren't irrresponsible enough to qualify. Let me know if you want more details on how that works. Actually, it's called believing in personal responsibility. *** Poster's attempt to throw a totally irrelevant and unrelated protest against the Iraq war, thrown out due to the fact that it has nothing to do with the topic matter.
Right and neither is morality that if you would think a bit: there was more of it before prayer and Bible reading was banned in our schools and this present day. So much for bannning prayer, separation of church and state biasedness and the overall getting rid of God in our "progressive", "broken loose from its moorings", society. Enjoy, Harvey. Hope you like what you bought into. BTW, anyone know what the going rate is for iron window bars and security doors?
I don't know, maybe they'll cut the budget someplace else. Why have all the highest deficits occurred during Republican administrations? Why has the only balanced budget, probably in your lifetime, occurred in a Democratic administration? Would you mind re-checking your math on that one? How much does a person have to make to afford that much in daycare? And, that $1200 credit is under current law. Didn't Edwards say he was going to increase the child care credit? I'm well aware you meant income taxes, and I am not playing word games. I am simply pointing out that there are other taxes besides income tax, and poor people do pay those other taxes. It is not convoluted at all. Again, you are saying they "pay no taxes at all." Every time they fill up the gas tank to go to work, they pay taxes to help build and maintain highways. Low income people do pay all those taxes I mentioned, and probably some more that I forgot to mention. Let's try an example. Let's use simple numbers for the sake of illustration. Say Joe and Mary each buy whatever amount of gas it would take to pay $10 in gas tax. If Joe's income is $100, he's paying 10% of his income in gas tax. If Mary's income is $200, she is paying 5% of her income in gas tax. So you see, the person with the lower income pays a higher percentage of his income in gas tax. The same principle applies to many other taxes. When we talk about tax incidence, it is not accurate to include some types of tax and not others.
My 2p... There is a difference between making resources available for those in need and flat out giving money to the poor. If I understand the article, Mr. Edwards plan would do the latter. There is an old adage that says, "Give a man a fish and you will feed him for the day, teach him to fish and he'll be fed for life." Nothing is gained by hand outs. In spite of what you may believe of your own work ethic, mankind is inherently lazy. Why should you work for something, if it's given to you without having to work? Then there is the question of what is lower, middle, and upper class? According to liberals, I am one of "the rich". When Mr. Bush proposed the tax cuts, all you heard from the left was that it was "tax cuts for the rich", yet I received a tax cut. I work forty hours a week. I live in an two-bedroom apartment. I just bought a used (2005) pickup. I pay my bills (usually on time). I have no savings, except for my 401K. Yet, I'm one of "the rich". I think it's about time we stop the class warfare. Stop with the "Us vs Them" mentality. I mean, think of the logic of it. We are told that "the rich" are bad people who don't deserve what they have. And, at the same time, we are trying to help "the poor" become one of "the rich".
