C3 - are you listening?????

You're kidding right? The Middle East is full of them. Haven't you ever heard the term "radical fundamentalist". Those are people who take every word of the Bible or Koran literally.

That's because churches are made up of people, and I don't know any people who aren't hypocrites ...even atheists and agnostics. No one is perfect and you can't realistically expect that. If you're using their lack of perfection as a reason to dismiss their entire message ...you're missing the point. There are good people with good intentions in most churches. You just have to look harder in some.

You also have context. If you read everything Jesus ever said ...several times ...you'll start understanding the context. Here's a small sample ...shouldn't be too much to read even for a heathen. :lol:

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders...

13 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

23Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

The context here shows that Jesus was against weighing people down with strict, burdensome laws (kinda like what you are doing with the bookstore and coffee shop issue). Its not a huge jump then to assume that Jesus threw out the money changers because they were pressuring people with the law requiring offerings in a certain type of currency and using certain types of animals, then ripping them off, when they didn't need to do those things at all.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice', you would not have condemned the innocent.
Mark 12:32-33 (This was said to Jesus) "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

In context, Jesus is saying "lighten up dude". Show a little mercy.

 

Allright...still does not bother me in the slightest. As long as there are no crimes being commited in the church......whatever they do in there is their business and really none of ours.

 

I agree as long as the commercial enterprises are paying the appropriate taxes and this isn't just a tax doge.

 

I am glad I at least got a call. I hope something happens with regard to the music.

I do not attend that church but I do know many who do. I do not know what to make of the coffee shop, other then, that it doesn't sound like too bad an idea IF and only IF the profits went towards outreach programs and such. If it is just to pay off the building fund I think that is shallow. Why would anyone build or buy so far over their means and incurr such a huge debt? Perhaps the building is already paid for, I do not know. Isn't it showy and ostentatious to erect something that is over your means? Does a pretty building attract more people to GOd? Personally I don't think so but many other feel differently. There have been huge catherdrals erected in His name and other edifices since the 1AD. Jesus preached in a fishing boat and in a field. I don't remember him needing all this pizazz to spread his word. That is my opinion.

No matter how I may feel,what is important that people find and feel God in their church. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean others don't. I feel the need to respect the likes of my neighbors. Many people I know and love attend that church. THat is where they find God. I can respect that and they can respect where I choose pray.

 

As long as they pay taxes on the revenue they take in I couldn't care less
about what they sell or do
It's a shame that churches are tax exempt(I may be wrong,but I don't think so)If I am,I'm pretty sure someone will set me straight

 

I doubt it is over their means. I'd bet they have it paid for before most of us finish paying off our cars.

 

The buliding is getting bigger, maybe prettier too but bigger to allow more people to attend. Currently our place of worship looks more like a warehouse I hope you can agree. We are making our buliding look more like a church. I know it is not the country church you might like but there are plenty of those around for you to look at. Jesus wore robes and sandals. When I was growing up and going to Mid-Way Bap. I had to have Sunday clothes, wearing suits and ties. Jesus didn't need that either. At C3 I can wear a t-shirt, my shorts and a pair of sneaks to go and worship God. I get to be me and not get all dressed up and feel fake. I am 34 yo and I get to show my son that God loves you no matter what you wear to church. That is important to my wife and I.

 

Josey, this is very well said.

 

Hi all,

I just want to interrupt the discussion here and just say something about baby Isaac. I have been keeping up with this thread and someone posted about baby Isaac in which I then read his blog through many tears after reading that and saying prayer after prayer for that baby boy and his parents, I realize for people to have that much faith and to still be glorifying God through this time rather than questioning him, their church must be supporting and encouraging their faith and doing something right, isn't that what it is about regardless if there is a coffee shop there or a bookstore or a petting zoo there....or whatever.... Life is about people and their own personal relationship with God, if the church is helping them through this difficult time, they are doing what they are supposed to for people. It isn't for us to judge the administrators of the church about what they are putting in there or aren't putting in their, they will have to answer to someone else at some other time for that......

Through their blog I see the incredible strength and faith the Leino family has and it makes me reflect on my relationship with God and how to make that stronger. The Leino family seems like a wonderful family. May God continue to support and give strength to the Leino family.

Thats all...sorry to interrupt.
Sharon

 

tax issue

This is straight from the IRS website in regards to unrealted income for non-profit organizations, including churches. Hope this answers your questions.


Unrelated Business Income Tax

Even though an organization is recognized as tax exempt, it still may be liable for tax on its unrelated business income. Unrelated business income is income from a trade or business, regularly carried on, that is not substantially related to the charitable, educational, or other purpose that is the basis of the organization's exemption. An exempt organization that has $1,000 or more or gross income from an unrelated business must file Form 990-T. See Unrelated Business Income Tax Returns and the Form 990-T instructions for more information about return filing.

The obligations to file Form 990-T is in addition to the obligation to file the annual information return, Form 990, 990-EZ or 990-PF. Group or consolidated returns are generally not permitted. Title holding corporations and organizations receiving their earnings may file a consolidated return, however.

 

Coffee Shop - Den of Robbers?

Shake - First of all the Passage in question (Mt 21:13, Mk 11:17, Lk 19:46) is a narrative not a command. A narrative requires interpretation. You are interpreting it just as much as anyone else in this thread. I like you, I think that I know what Jesus meant hear. A literal interpretation would condemn those dove traders and banks in the temple in Jerusalem.

Second, we have to be very careful when we apply teachings on the temple to a church building. Otherwise we might have to redecorate with more gold and fancy imported drapes.

Third, when you said "merchandising" I didn't think you were serious. Do you really think that Jesus' words referred to trading goods? Maybe you have seen this word in some translation. I have not. The word from the Greek is exactly the word in most English translations, robbers (or thieves). Jesus is implying that the people were stealing something, not trading.

Forth, how do you define profit? Most would define profit as charging enough to cover all expenses (including human resources) and then have some left that is not reinvested. I'm sure that all churches wish they could give everything away but they just can't. We made a choice to try to cover some of the costs, in order to provide the service of a bookstore and a coffee shop (in the future) because we believe that these things contribute to the Great Commission.

Fifth, if we were selling crackers and grape juice for communion I might agree with you, but we are not.

Sixth, does anyone really think that a coffee shop is going to pay off our building?

Finally, to many that question the big new building: We are not building it to be fancy or extravagant. We are building it because we need more room. We currently have 5 services in order to seat everybody that is coming. We want to continue to reach more people who are not already attending church. We can't do that when there is no room. As it is, we will have to have 2 services even when the new building is completed.

Again, we all have different tastes. I hope that all of you do or will attend a church somewhere. I want all churches to grow, not just ours. God is in the business of changing lives and bringing us relationship, hope and purpose. I don't care where you get it but I hope you find it somewhere.

 

What's with the crackers and grape juice comment? Sounds like a bit of catholic bashing here. Or perhaps you just meant that as a simple example. Please explain.
Seems to contradict the church growth comments. Not arguing - just looking for clarity. THank you

 

I didn't take it as that pepper....
1 reasons:
catholics use wine not juice

 

I think that is in reference to taking communion, which Baptists do. If they were selling the grape juice and communion crackers rather than providing it. Just as an example is the way I took it.

 

Yeah, no juice, nor did I ever get any crackers served to me during mass. If I'd known of some church that served refreshments during services, I may have converted

 

New Forum Needed

I think we can have some really interesting discussions about Bible interpretations, theology, etc... but I think it would be better served in a new forum. I think we've run this one through the ringer.

Just a thought. If a new forum is started then the Forum Topic/Title may draw additional people in with their opinion/view points on the topic.

 

A point of concern that I have is does C3 ever speak/teach/preach on the subject of sin or is it just a "group hug" mentality that they espouse? Do you think that if I was a Buddhist I could attend and not feel threatened by their doctrine or do you think they would try to convert me?

 

Here is a wild suggestion.

Go to a service and find out.

 

Great Question

C3 does teach the difference between making good and bad choices. As most churches, it is taught that none of us are perfect and we have all made mistakes (sinned) and through the sacrifice of Jesus and God's grace everyone is forgiven. The Bible calls us to live a life committed to following/living for God and doing what the Bible says. And when we commit our life to God (some know it as being "Born Again" or "Saved") then not only will God begin to change our life here but we have an eternal promise as well (Heaven).

The difference between some churches is how they approach people. We teach the Bible (which helps us know what is right and wrong) but we do not condemn people and say you can't come to our church if you are doing "X, Y Z...". Everyone is welcome to be a part of what we are doing and see what God wants to do in their life. God changes us from the inside out. The moment we commit our life to Him, He starts leading us to begin to make better/right choices.

So if you are a Buddhist and came to C3, you would be 100% welcomed and not condemned. But at the same time, you will hear that as Christians we believe that there is no other God than Jesus and that each us has made mistakes (sinned) and we all (Christians and Non-Christians) need God's forgiveness. And if you had any questions about our beliefs, the teaching or just wanted someone to pray with or for you, regardless of what you believe, there are people that would gladly talk with you.

To wrap it up... Jesus was telling the disciples...

John 13:34-35
(New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

(The Message)
34-35"Let me give you a new command: Love one another. In the same way I loved you, you love one another. This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other."

We (Christians) don't always do a great job of this but it is something we all should all strive for.