exactly! This program is OBVIOUSLY in place for a reason. But I see here in this thread... the different thoughts on is has gotten way off track. It's for the needy not the lazy. And there is a HUGE difference between the 2. Now let me get back to work before Raven calls me out again. :lol:
Well, in the strictest sense, if you want to get really picky, yes. Anything you receive that you do not pay for is technically welfare. My point is, though, that in the real world, it's not called welfare since the general context of the word "welfare" refers to subsidies intended for those in need. And, in case you don't want to re-read the thread o see what prompted my post, it's the same for government grants (specifically education grants). There is a difference since grants are given whether or not one is in need. Similarly for our college system where in-state tuition is subsidized by the state government. It, too, is given whether or not one is in need.
Actually, it was welfare and loans, not grants. :wink: That would be similar, but the benefit is not givne directly to anyone so it is more of a service or subsidy to a service provider. No, since not taking something is different from being given something, Now you are really going out into left field to try to make a connection .... :lol: No, as there are services we all benefit from being in place. The military protection, police protection, fire protection, and the list goes on. The deciding factor for something to be called 'Welfare' would be the inclusion of an income cut off to give help to those considere to be in need as opposed to bein available to the general population. The student loan program is limited to income levels on the application. Which excludes the student loan program in what manner?
Actually, the reference you made was to whether a 'gift' was a 'handout' not whether it was welfare. The two terms are sometimes similar but not in this context. :wink: A gift is a handout especially in the case of a non-friend/relative where it may be viewed as a payback for other gifts, but that is getting way off track, IMO.
If you legitimately NEED it and you have worked and have paid in taxes, you have EVERY RIGHT to get it. I've worked all my life. But, if something, God forbid, happens and I need assistance and qualify, you're doggone right I'm gonna go get it. I ain't too proud. :wink: Maybe there should be more investigation into circumstances for people wanting assistance. Although it seems they ask for your life's blood for info to get you to qualify now. :roll: I have Health Choice of NC for my kids because me and them on my insurance at where I work is WAY TOO MUCH. :x I..ah....need to buy food, pay the light bill, gas, rent, school stuff and every other thing. I qualify, I work, I pay taxes. That's it, period. Is it a hand out? I don't think so since I work and pay taxes.
Education is not welfare, Wayne. And it's not public assistance. If so...then you are saying each child in America gets Welfare for 12 years. :roll: Education is part of our infrastructure. And in my opinion, it should continue on through college. All would be eligible for education. Who said they wouldn't be? Those who abuse it will lose it...but they are initially eligible.
Well, I think few of us expect much of anything out of a street person or a corpse. :roll: I'd feel safe saying that the number of those who went to college but ended up as a street person, are going to be minimal. As for those who die, if they have any estate, it will be paid through the estate. Remember, student loans are now like taxes. Bankruptcy doesn't discharge them, and they come first in the line of creditors, along with taxes, on estates. Lastly, I don't think many taxpayers are going to hold a grudge against the 27 year old student who has little assets yet...and who gets killed in a car accident...because he didn't pay his student loans before he died. :roll:
So see...you've made my point about education. We all benefit when people are educated. It's education that provides cures for disease, inventions that save lives, it boosts the economy. Some say it even deters crime.
You are correct in the first 12 year of education not being welfare, but the assistance in the higher education is. You have made an incorrect connection based on your personal belief which is flawed. The assistance for higher education is not guaranteed to all but has the need based restrictions that make is welfare. They would be eligible for education but that is not what I said. It is the assistance in the payment for that education. This would be a perfect example of a Strawman Fallacy where you mis-state the position and then 'disprove' the restatment as if you had disproved my statement, which you had not.
That is why the taxpayers foot the bills for those people. The default rate for student loans is better than the error rate in the food stamp program, but the errors in the food stamp program includes clerical errors on the part of government too. Is there that much differenc in the two? http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2005/09/09142005.html U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings announced today a new low student loan default rate of 4.5 percent, and she credited schools, loan industry partners and the Education Department's Federal Student Aid office for their concerted efforts to help students repay their loans on time. http://www.performanceweb.org/Research/california/Artilces/parteight.htm Another program that has been susceptible to federal fines is California's administration of the federal food stamp program. Last year, the state was reprimanded to the tune of a $115.8-million fine for operating "the most error-plagued food stamp program in the nation." California's 17.4 percent error rate was over twice the national average of 8.66 percent. The fine was the largest ever imposed by the program, which dates back to the 1960s. That still does not ensure the taxpayers are not paying for some of them in addition to providing funds to keep the interest rate low. That really does not matter except in the attempt to make a case where there is none.
We also benefit from the safety net provided by welfare programs too, but you seem to disagree with one and not the other.
That has to be the biggest line of circumnavigating B/S I've ever heard !!! Internet Debate??? What the heck is that? Inventing methods to disguise ignorance now?? The link was not a "mass of various links". Seems you can't read either. It was the entire bill including all sections and sub-sections. If you just couldn't read it just say that. In my second post I actually refined the link for you. So harping on the "bad" link senario leaves you lacking and wanting. "Typical liberal entitlement attitude you display there." Nice excuse, throw it off to political view for the chance others might ignore your misgivings. "one has to be prepared to provide reliable resources when stating facts, or one's integrity is nil." I suggest you follow your own direction and go back and review your posts, Miss Nil.
My friend and I have been reading this board for quite some time now but have never registered. But after reading this welfare subject I felt the need to get on board. Magnolia I just have to say: "wow and I agree." It makes me sick to my stomach to go into the grocery store and see someone that is using their food stamp card when I see a variety of snack foods and colas in their cart. When reading about the history of food stamps it says that it was established with the goal of alleviating hunger and malnutrition by permitting low-income households to obtain a more nutritious diet through normal channels of trade. No matter where you look there is going to be people taking advantage of the financial assistance. Take the victims of Katrina, there were many people lying to get the cards they were handing out. Too many of these people think that this assistance just grows on trees and they don't give a damn where the money comes from. Thank you for letting me voice my opinion.
Any government assistance program will have waste and abuse in it...whether it is welfare, NC Health Choice, or monies going to college students. Its just nature of government and the nature of some people. But some people seem to be so concern that someone is costing taxpayers money when they abuse the welfare program or food stamp program. Where is the concern when a college student, who the taxpayers of North Carolina are subsidizing their tuition by over $9,000 a year, drops out of college because they are partying too much and not attending class, etc.? Does anyone think they should repay the taxpayers the $9,000 that they wasted?
I'll throw in my 2 cents. Welfare programs started by FDR and forward were concocted by known communist sympathizers Like Robt Morganthau and others(this is not just bomb throwing it's fact) These programs were created in order to create a dependency on gov't for your "daily bread" as it were. They have succeeded wildly. LBJ was heard to say in 1964 when trying to pass the Great Soceity "WE pass this bill and them N's will vote Democrat for the next 200 years" This came from a book by the first sec of HHS Jos. Califano. Racism and vote buying what a basis for "social justice" Entitlement programs have bankrupted American soceity both financially and socially. Since when is it MY responsibility to pay for the upkeep of a single tenage mother who chose to have sex and not finish school? HMMMMM.
