What are they building at White Oak?

Nice glasses.

I do not work for ToC.

 

I did this a few years ago but im going to redo it just for Harvey, since his glasses are a touch foggy.

The Land Development Process - Residential Subdivision in Johnston County Planning Jursidiction

Developer (D) finds some land that someone is willing or thinking about selling. For this example, we will say D has found a 100 acre tract that someone is willing to sell and they start the process.

D goes to see his local land surveyor (LS) or engineer (E) and tells them he has a tract of land he wants to develop. Wants the LS or E to do a preliminary subdivision layout to see how many lots the D can get out of the property. With todays technology and information, you can do this with 90 to 95% certainty without the LS or E stepping on the property.

First, the County rules and regulations have to be taken in to account. Current County density in their AR (Agricultural Residential) is 1.5 lots per acre. Meaning D can get a max of 150 lots from his 100 acre tract. Sounds like a winner since D will offer the land owner X number of dollars per lot he can get. On average, a D will offer any where from $12,000 to $15, 000 per lot he can get from the land. That means at the bottom number, $12k x 150 = $1,875,000 that D would pay the land owner for that 100 acre tract.

If it worked out that way. It doesnt. It never does.

The County has other regulations. 10% of the development has to be set aside for open space. Thats 10% if the D provides amenities (pool etc...). If D does not, then he has to set aside 15% of the land for open space. So lets say D provides a pool and clubhouse and playground area and uses 1 acre to do that. He just lost 10 acres for open space and 1 acre for recreation. Now he has 89 acres left to develop.

15 years ago, Open Space could be any where on the property and in any condition. Meaning wetlands would count, creek buffers and so on. He could put it all in the 100 year flood area and it would count. Now, it does not work that way. 10% has to be high and dry and usable. Most property around here now have creeks in the back and some throughout the property. Since you can not build in riparian buffers and you can in Fema Flood Areas but no one does, assume a loss of 5 acres for buffers, wetlands and flood. D is now down to 84 acres.

Soils! Yes, there is a factor of the soil conditions of the property. Different soil types mean different septic tank absorption characteristics. Even though a soil might be dry to the touch, it is not good for septic tanks. Sand is great. Clay is not.

So the entire development is based around the topography of the land, the soil types, any wetland areas, creeks, streams, buffers, flood. All of that is taken to in account in the preliminary design process. This will cost the D on average of $1000 to $2000 to get an idea of what could happen on the property and this is before the D even buys it.

Side Note: D can elect to not provide open space at all. He will pay a fee-in-lieu of it at the rate of $400 per lot (i think thats right. It may be more but i know its not less). So if D ended up with 100 lots, he pays $40,000 in open space fees.

Ok, D now has a good idea of what can be done with the property. Armed with a map showing 80 lots he goes to the land owner and they haggle a price. (i picked 80 lots at random). They settle at $14,000 per lot for a total of $1.12 million. D writes a check to land owner for $1.2 on Jan 1, 2015 and begins the development process. And paying interest.

LS or E revise the map given to D to add everything the County needs to see in order to approve or disapprove it. County needs Site Data. How big the property is. How many lots allowed, how many proposed. How many square feet in right-of-way, how many SF in pavement and so on and so on. That gets turned in on the first of the month. Providing D is on the ball with everything, the map gets turned in to the county on Feb 1. Development gets to the Planning Board a few weeks later and towards the end of Feb you have an answer. Approved or shot down.

2 months of interest on a $1.2 million loan.

D has approval and immediately gets a survey of the property so everyone knows where everything is. This can take a few weeks depending on the land features. Boundary determined, the D can get his equipment in there to start clearing what needs to be cleared. Clearing limits get staked, roads get staked for grading etc. 2 more months pass.

Now its April 1. 4 months paying interest.

The lots get preliminary staked out so the health department can go in and approve each lot. HD has to make sure each lot has enough suitable soils for a normal 3 bed 2 bath house. Some lots will work. Some will be rejected. Those rejected are taken back to the LS or E and the map is reworked and re-designed. Its the old adage. You dont make 1 change and thats it. That change affected this and now this needs changing. Well now those need changing to. Re-design can take several weeks. New lot config gets staked out and HD goes back out to re-inspect. Most cases, all lots pass. Sometimes a few dont. Then its back to re-design but its not major.

Now its June 1. Seriously.

Now there was the issue of the stream crossing the middle of the property that D will have to build a bridge to get the road across. This requires permits from NCDEHNR as well as the Army CoE (depending on the size of the crossing). In a perfect world, this will be done in 4 months or so but this process has been going on most of this entire time but it does add a month to the development.

July 1. The land is starting to look like a subdivision. You can drive through the dirt roads and kind of see what it will look like. Next up is getting services put in. Phone, Power and Cable TV is ran to each lot by the appropriate utility. This can take 1-2 months easily. Utilities in, the landscapers come in and do the ditches, seed and straw and rip out half the property irons that the LS put in the ground requiring them to be put back in. More costs.

Sept 1. D has paid interest on 1.2 for this entire time and has not sold the first piece of dirt. I know Harvey, you bleed for them.

Roads get paved, driveway pipes put in, street signs put up. Final map gets drawn. Water samples taken and given to the County for approvals. D decides that he only wants to do the development in phases now and wants to do 20 lots in Phase 1. With interest and developmental costs so far, D is now in to this project for $2.0 mill. He does this because if he records all 85 lots, he has to pay taxes on each individual lot until he sells it. So 20 lots in the first phase it is.

On Oct 1, D is able to sell his first lot. (for this narrative, which is quite accurate and true, believe me, i have put this in a "perfect world", meaning D hit very very few hiccups along the process.) D finds a builder who is willing to take all 20 of the lots. Wooo! Score! D sells each lot for $35,000 (average price for a septic lot) and on Oct 5, D gets a big fat check for $700,000. Course, has to pay taxes on that but lets just say for arguement he does not because Harvey thinks all developers ride off in to the sunset.

D is in to the project for $2.0 and just got $700,000 back. Now D's loan at the bank is down to $1.3 mill. However, D has good fortune and on Jan 1 of the following year, the same builder wants 20 more lots. Score! Another $700,000! But wait, there is a small issue. In Johnston County, any subdivision with more than 20 lots requires a turn lane to be put in. Average cost of a turn land is $115,000 to $125,000. This just cut in to his profit a touch, not to mention 4 more months of paying interest on the previous $1.3 mill.

You get the idea.

Fast forward and as it turns out D was able to sell all his remaining lots (5 phases later) and is now out of this development. He is through and as Harvey says, off to the sunset. 2 years to the day after D started the process, he is finished with the subdivision. (3 years would be closer to reality but still...)

Lets do the numbers.

$1.2 million loan
$2.0 million final development costs
2 years of paying interest.
85 lots sold at $35,000 each = $2,975,000

So in 2 years, D made $975,000. I could get used to that.

But you have to count in the interest - which i have no idea what it would be. I never had a loan for that much but using a quick online calculator shows that if D did a 4 year loan of 2.0 mill at 4%, his monthly payment is 45k plus or minus. Maybe he did a 15 year loan. Payment is 15k so lets go with that.

24 months x 15k = $360,000. Take that from the $975k and you have $615,000 in 2 years (in the perfect world).

However, the developer is still on the hook for the subdivision roads. NCDOT does not take over subdivision roads until 80% of all the lots have been sold and or occupied so until that time comes, D still has to maintain the roads.

Again, the above example is using rounded off numbers and perfect world timelines. It never works that good. Ever. So you think still, lets say it was not so perfect and D clears only $400k from the development. Thats $200k a year. Most of us would take that, certainly. However, it is far from riding off into the sunset. Most 100 lot subdivisions can take 5-7 years to sell out. This example was 2 years.

If this was in the Town of Clayton, you can add 1 year min to this time line and 1.5 the cost.

Yes Harvey, i do know what i am talking about. :cheers:

Oh, the Town of Clayton lets you develop nothing, nothing in the Town without paying impact fees. And they are steep. Ask the people who were going to do the Clayton Bistro - now Riffs - why they pulled out. And whats neat about those impact fees the Bistro was going to have to pay? They were already paid. Years ago. By Wendys! Yet somehow the Bistro's impact was on top of the impact Wendy had for the same seats! Double impact fees for the same building. Neat!

 

I never doubted that you did. Seems like I hit a sore spot. Like I said, you have knowledge of this sort of thing and I am real happy you got a chance to show that. Doesn't mean we can't have opinions.

Whether Clayton's process is too strict or not, the areas that get developed in the city limits or ETJ (if they have one) look like they were put together by a monkey playing Sim City. If the process is too cumbersome then developers could go somewhere else to build their stuff, isn't that what we say about bad service? Don't like it? Don't go there, don't buy it, etc. Eventually, Clayton would get the message and lighten up if they want more development.

It may seem like I am coming down on Clayton, but the development/planning process as a whole is what I have issues with. Developers can be just as much at fault for sub-par results. You may say there is too much oversight, but it certainly doesn't show.

 

Didnt hit a sore spot at all. I just have a hard time believing that you believe what you believe

It may look like its Sim City but you have to realize that the people who develop land do so where they feel is the most beneficial for their project. I am sure if the Town had their choice, developers would come in and ask where they could build and the Town would point them in the right direction. It just doesnt work that way. There is only so much land available and even less of that available land is for sale.

The Smithfield / Coke warehouse up the street, when it was built some 18 or so years ago for Winn Dixie was a huge boon for the Town. If you never saw it, there was easily 10x the number of trucks in and out of there each day than it is now. Maybe even more. Then WD left the area and the warehouse complex was basically empty. Few small distributors but nothing major. So for many years it sat quiet until Smithfield and Coke came in. That empty warehouse was a blight on the town really. Might be one of the reasons Lowes pulled out. I still think it was impact fees. Remind me one day to tell you about what the Town did to the Shinny Diner when it came in.

When someone comes in and finds some land and wants to develop it, legally the Town can not deny it if it meets their UDO and other criteria. Now the Town can certainly "do things" that will end up causing the project to die but they want the tax base, fees and so on. You cant make people develop where the Town wants. The developer decides the location. It is their business, afterall.

I still dont see that apartment complex working. I dont see the demand. Course, i have been um...wr.....wro......incorr.....less right before.

 

Town of Clayton must be doing something right. It is my understanding that Johnston Health, Fred Smith (Riverwood), and WalMart (among a number of others) all requested annexation into TOC. Clayton did not initiate these annexations to my knowledge. So excessive impact fees as previously claimed must have been outweighed by TOC services.
In my opinion Becky Flowers, Flowers Plantation, has done the best job of planning for residential and commercial development. I am not related, employed or live in Flowers Plantation. Just saying!

 

http://www.townofclaytonnc.org/client_resources/legislative/agenda/2014/2014jun16agenda.pdf

 

What's your point in posting Town Council Agenda?
Rezoning request RZ 2014-53 located at 225 E Second Street;
Rezoning request RZ 2014-41 located at 277 Guy Road;
I believe both these requests were initiated by property owners.

Both seem reasonable.

 

He thinks he's the google ninja with powers no one else has. Other than that he just has a superior intellect. Yes, that's sarcasm.

 

The link shows these property owners made a petition to be annexed, which is not a presumption.

 

Actually the link showed the property owners requested REZONING, not ANNEXATION. These are very different things. Both properties are located within the town limits and/or ETJ, which means they could not get annexed if they wanted to. They are already there.

 

Item 3e.

Resolution directing the clerk to investigate annexation petition
request 2014-03-01 located on Glen Laurel Road and Vinson Road
for 12 parcels.

 

To be clear, I did not quote from the link orignally because I posted from my phone and it does not copy PDF well for some reason. The locations of the auction was not in a good coverage area most of the time.

 

Glen Laurel and Vinson Roads were not the items i was replying to earlier. I was replying about the Guy Road and E Second Street. Those addresses are already in the Town. I was replying about PooBear's post.

 

Yes, that reference kind of muddled what I tried to provide in the link. Had I been able to quote in that post it would have been more clear.

 

:cheers:

 

I was at White Oak yesterday and noticed another building being constructed on the left side of the new road coming into Cabellas. I'm thinking it may be the new Carolina Ale House.

 

Traffic Nightmare

This area will be a traffic nightmare. They need to extend Timber Drive across I40 to Greenfield Pkwy (? spelling - where the Chrysler dealership is located). Give a back exit out of White Oak. At least 4042 residents can come in from Cornwallis.

 

I know there are plans for that. Just haven't seen any date for the start of it.

 

I saw that as well, I think you are correct. The 7-story hotel being built next to Cabelas is not scheduled to start construction until the Spring.

 

Probably not until 40/440 paving gets done.