After salvation, God's grace does not depend on anything. If it did, it would be a "works-based" salvation. After salvation, you can't "walk away from Christ". At that point the price has been paid for all eternity and you are His forever. His degree of forgiveness does not wax or wane depending on our actions. This is what "some preacher" named Billy Graham believes and since I don't think you have any insight into the Bible superior to his, that's good enough for me. I can't think of another person in my lifetime who has lived a more Godly life. Romans 8:35, 38, & 39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? ...For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Not for me. Salvation is the only thing that matters. This "works unto son-ship" is just a religion-based denominational teaching. No. When you start telling me that Jesus' words have hidden or multiple meanings ...that you can reveal to me ...I want to stay as far away from you as possible. :lol: I don't want to know about "becoming a son". This is a works-based teaching (maturing unto son-ship) ...and a teaching that I strongly disagree with. I just want to go to Heaven, and that's been taken care of already.
Given the intensive interpretation of the wording of the Bible the message has to have been altered by the use of translation. One simple example is one of the Ten Commandments being either Thou shalt not murder or Thou shalt not kill. The former is signifcantly different from the latter in meanin gand application. The Jewish and Islamic religions take a signifcantly different view on Jesus. Of the different religions, there were those of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and Persians are major examples in the area. Outside of the area is even more diverse. http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/ancient_religions.htm Which neither supports your religious beliefs nor makes the faith any less applicable. Religion and its need for support by pure faith removes all but the most rudementary application of reasoning.
But I do have to receive it, correct? That in itself is something I must do, therefore, is that not a works issue? Who sez? Read this before and after shot: Philemon 1:23-24 (NASB) "Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, 24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow workers." "Make every effort to come to me soon; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me ".....2 Timothy 4:9-10 (NASB) I say that depends on your conduct after you come into His saving Grace. In another words, prove by your life He has done something IN you; reveal a disposition He can bless. Give a living testimony of His Grace. Can you do that? Well, I guess you can't give a testimony, feel no need to and can live like hell. So much for what I wrote. Billy Graham, when asked said only about 20% of his "converts" ever hung in there when they left his service. I wonder why and where did they go when they left their confession of salvation. Are you prepared to say they weren't saved to begin with? You would make that judgment call? You will if you so desire. Just pray you don't leave so far you can't return. Pardon me?? Hebrews 2:10 (NASB) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings [passion]. I guess you don't want to be one of them?? Too bad. How shall you escape if you neglect so great a salvation? I think you need a good Bible study. Tell me, what does joint-heirship with Christ mean to you? Do you think that is just going to be handed to any presumptous individual claiming His name, without them seeking for it?
Not so. Have you examined them? Indeed, however upon examination you will finf the latter is of an agenda. That's why it is important to know who does the translating. Here's an example of what I am alluding to: Genesis 33:10 (KJV) "And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, ..............." While another would say: (NASB)10 "Jacob said, "No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight,....." While both are correct only one, upon study, will reveal a more intimate understanding when the word "grace" is inserted.. This is criticism not immediately picked up except upon the understanding of other text that reveals God's "grace" to mean more than simply, God's "favor". Yet nothing is violated by accepting one over the other. Indeed, When did the Islamic view first come into focus except 5-600 yrs after Jesus Christ.....And without a risen Lord to support such authorship. Remember Jesus Christ was seen by over 500 hundred atfer His resurrection. What are the credentials of Mohammad, aside from myth? Where is the record? And "the fool has said in his heart: 'There is no God'". So what can I say that can be convincing, if one can't be convinced? Jesus Christ established a movement based upon love. Can you name another who established a movement upon the same thing, love?
Ormly, Maybe you should read Matthew chapter 7 verses 15-20... That is how I feel about what you are doing here. Quote: No. When you start telling me that Jesus' words have hidden or multiple meanings ...that you can reveal to me ...I want to stay as far away from you as possible. :lol: Ormly wrote:I think you need a good Bible study. t4t: If you read the chapter before and the chapter after, there are no hidden meanings. The bible makes it very clear. You cant just quote a phrase and go by that. According to John 3:16 For God so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son that who ever believes in him shall not parish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through him. Who ever believes in him is not condemned. (not copied and pasted) How does this have a secret meaning. You do believe in the new testament don't you?
ormly wrote: Jesus Christ established a movement based upon love. Can you name another who established a movement upon the same thing, love? Jezebel? lol, sorry, couldn't resist. no ummmm, how about the book of Job. If that doesn't move with love, I don't know what else to tell ya. Maybe go back and read it?
Romans 12:1-2 (NASB) Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your *[reasonable, rational, intelligent] spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. *[emphasis-A.N.T] If you believe you know what God expects from one of His, then you may wish to consider more of what that passage means to convey.
Brother, I have drank of the milk and nourished my soul. Now let's read the new testament where Jesus emphasized God's rules and wishes. I am not the enemy. You are supposed to love everyone as you love yourself. This means the secret message is that we should not waste our time with arguing the bible when we as Christians should be witnessing and laboring in God works. AMEN. I notice you pull a lot from the old testament.....
I never said you were the enemy; never looked upon you as such. You have chosen that path with your accusations.....And I notice you have left out the first and most important part of that great command. How come? Are you convicted? I realize we all should be to some degree. However, the difference here is that I recognize it as the means to accomplish what you can only emphasize. The whole Bible is about God's Grace; His Grace is not confined to the NT. God has never changed His mind about anything, including what He is looking for in man and from man, as a consequence of His Grace much given. You have already revealed the depth of your knowledge and the effect of His Grace so I don't believe I have been presumptous in any way. I have commented on what you have presented, as I view it from His perspective by His Word revealed to me. Words mean something. His word means much word, it is life. It's not "cotton candy". How else can it be spoken, it says what it says? If it hurts, its not my fault unless it is meanest coming from me with intent to injure. If it was, then it wouldn't be His Word but mine. However, I don't believe modern "church folk" realize what Jesus meant when He said He didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. Do you know what he meant? From the OT: Deuteronomy 6:4-7 (KJV) 6 "................. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." From the NT: Mark 12:30-31 (KJV) 12: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Peace
Modern church has discarded the old ways of reverence that honored God, in favor of news ways that relieve conviction of soul because of its dishonor, using evil reasoning and calling it acceptable in His sight. Proverbs 14:12 (NASB) There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. When Christ comes back to earth will He find faith?
Do not paint with such a broad brush, Ormly. There are plenty of "new" churches that make you do a "gut check" every Sunday morning before you leave. I've been to a few that make me feel like my toes were stepped on quite a bit. Don't be so stuck in your "old" ways that you neglect or turn away the younger generation. There is so much out there for the younger generation to "enjoy" that the church does have to change with the time to encourage them to venture into church to see that it's not the little old lady with blue hair playing the old upright piano anymore. Nothing wrong with that if you want a bunch of old folks (and that's all you want) sitting around praying for the same sick people in the hospital every week. Sorry but that is very depressing. I want a church that when I leave for the day, the sermon makes me want to go grab a sinner by the shirt and shake the sin right out of them not a big hug-fest and another "sorry-to-hear-about-your-aunt-Bertha" talk as I walk out the door on Sunday.
I didn't realize that is what I was speaking of. I thought I wrote something about, honoring God. You don't seem to be addressing that in your reply.
ah-ah-ah.....no need for the attack. You are too quick to jump on the defenensive, Ormly. Try reading and responding without attacking everyone. I was simply making a statement based on your comment and that is what I read into it. I guess if you are to make your point a little more clear, you ought to do so in your posts. I have no problem with you standing your ground with your convictions, I admire that. One who stands for nothing will fall for anything. But, your quick and snotty comments to those trying to have a decent conversation are being turned off by your attitude. Honestly, I am looking for a church and with the comments you have made, yours would not be my first choice. I love a strong church (and a strong Christian) but not one with an attitude or ego.
