I agree with Hat. One small experiment by one county is no basis for educational theorizing about how kids retain information over summer vacation. Anyone who accepts the board's findings without seeing the detailed evidence is willfully ignorant and easily manipulated. Even if their findings are correct, how significant is it? For example how much information does a typical child lose over summer vacation? How long does it take to bring them back up to speed? Why is it even important? After 9 months of learning, if they can't retain the information over the following 3 month summer vacation ...what the heck is going to happen when they graduate?
The school board or school system doesn't HAVE to ask anyone's opinion about this. The have been elected by voters to make these kind of decisions. I think it is great they are asking for opinions because they dont really have to. -DB's wife
I have been following this thread and I am not going to waste my time responding to some of the points where people talk about how "children at some schools are stupid" whatever that has no place here at all. Retaining information well that is CLEARLY based on an individual point of view. No one retains info the same way as others do. I do agree with the point of if you don't use it you lose it so being out of school for an over extended period of time a child my lose some information but if the schools go over the stuff the child studied last yr the first week of school then the info should come back to the child. If the child at this pt doesn't remember the info or can't do it then u have 2 ask yourself "Did my child indeed learn the information?" Once again goes back to how well a child retains info. I have noticed that a lot of people are comparing Johston co to wake co as far asyr round schools....well STOP the schedules are apples and oranges. As of RIGHT now there are no tracks as there only a few schools in johnston co who are on the modified calendar. Right now elementary schools only may be affected then maybe middle schools. High schools are not as they have tomany variables at this time. There is a lot of he said she said going on and if you post something and say "I tell you where i get my info as it will get someone in trouble" blah blah blah then DONT post it as it is probrobly a lie.(my opion(sp)) Modified calendars as I have read and took it upon myself to talk to a teacher who works in a schools with a modified calendar it is just that. MODIFIED. It appears you go to school a few weeks then have 2 off etc etc. During those 2 week break the PARENTS have a choice to send there child to school if the PARENT thinks THERE child needs more attention. If not then enjoy your break. The ball is completley in th parents hands. There is no hidden agenda and no one is "out to get you" get the facts ALL the facts. The best way to do that is talk to people, principals, teacher etc who are working in the modified calendar. Maybe the next forum some of those should be invited so parents can talk to them get the info first hand. Is it the fear of the unknow that gets you or the fact that some folks are from the north and are use to regular calendar yr sure change is hard, but you can'tmake an educational or smart choice without all the info or just by making assumptions.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well the educational session was executed at Cooper Elem last night. The Principal delivered the information in as unbiased manner as possible, and honestly answered as many questions as she could. The tone was definitely different than what I saw at East Clayton, which IMO was very pro-change. Parents distributed flyers which I think did a good job outlining the key issues for those folks who may not be aware of some of them. Here's a reproduction of that text: Some questions to consider before voting for the proposed year round calendar… 1. Why now? What is the urgency for this change? Is there a specific need driving the new calendar for Cooper? 2. Timing? The proposed start date for the new calendar is less than 5 months away. Is this enough time for schools and parents to adequately prepare for next school year? What about families that have already made childcare plans, paid for summer camps, or made (and paid for) vacation plans for this summer? 3. Future Plans? Is this proposal an interim step toward a multiple-track year round system like Wake County’s highly controversial schedule? Is this the example we want to model our school system after? 4. Effective? It has been reported that test scores REGRESSED for at least one of the two schools that piloted this schedule. Does the school system have conclusive data that shows the year round calendar will be effective for schools like Cooper? 5. Schedule Conflicts? For families with children in both elementary and middle/high school, those children will be on separate school schedules. 25% of the school year (46 days) conflict exists between the year round calendar and the traditional calendar, when one child will be attending school while the other is not. Will this create a hardship on parents who need to take time away from work to stay with one child or pay for additional child care? During intersession, no transportation will be provided. Will this also create a hardship on families who need to take time away from work to drive students to school and early pickup? 6. Funding? The Superintendent has stated that the school system is in the middle of a budget crisis. Why is the school system considering implementing a new schedule that will incur increased costs? It has been suggested the school system may cut the AIG center and early college programs to save money. Is this a fair trade for funding the new calendar? 7. Fair Opportunity for All? Students identified for remediation will receive instruction at no cost to parents. Why are parents who opt to send their children to enrichment during intersession required to pay for that service? Is this fair to all students?
Speaking of Facts... Here's some data shared at the Cooper elementary meeting last night. The EOG scores for the 2 schools already operating under the new schedule: West Smithfield (2010): Reading +2% Math -5.2% Reading & Math -1.6% South Johnston (2010) Reading -3.6% Math +3.6% Reading & Math +0.1% Compare these to Cooper's scores on the traditional schedule: Reading +4.2% Math +7.6% Reading & Math +5.9% Make your own conclusions, but this doesn't really look like an overwhelming improvement to me (comparing Title 1 schools).
good points bronco but you have to throw a learning curve in there as it has been a yr for the new modified calendar for those schools. Children need to adjust I would be more interested in the scores after lets say the 2nd or 3rd yr. I mean we have been doing traditional calendars for yrs any time you do a change especially as big as this you need to give people an adjustment period...I'm just saying
Agree the data could change over time, but this really reinforces point #1 on the flyer: 1. Why now? What is the urgency for this change? Is there a specific need driving the new calendar for Cooper?
why now???? I guess folks could say why not??? whats driving them..... cost efficentciy(sp) to run schools...maybe???? Does it save on gas/electric for the school and buses. maybe??? I don't have a copy of there utility bill but looking outside the box maybe.... All I know is behind every change there stands the $$$$ symbol. We all want or children to have a good education and we know that the schools barely can run by the buget they get and teachers are way underpaid. I guess another ?? would be if not now when say 5 yrs from now 10, 20, 30 ???? would that change the opions(sp) of people sure it will be a new set of parents but all the same ??? and concerns. Is there really a good time to change????
From the information provided by the school system, they expect this change will increase costs, not reduce it. They expect some of that cost to be handled by a windfall of funds from canceling summer school (not needed in a year round schedule), and the remediation dollars awarded to Title I schools - but this is not expected to cover the entire cost. I don't believe they have explained where the additional money is coming from, but I was in attendance when canceling AIG and early college was suggested at the kitchen table meetings with the Superintendent a few weeks ago. Make your own call on whether that's a fair trade for use of funds.
A parent of a rising kindergartner called me this evening, quite upset. She called the school where her child will attend and asked why weren't families of the new crop of kindergartners included on this, (as opposed to the parents of the 5th graders who will be in middle school the next school calendar), that it seemed that there is such a rush on this that they could have at least waited to get the input form parents registering their children for kindergarten in the next couple of weeks. The response she was given, which I quote from her, "This doesn't concern you." was kind of a slap to a mother who has sent two kids through this elementary school already, who has actively supported the PTA, the school functions, etc, and will now have a children in elementary, middle, and high school. I'd say the different schedules definitely concern her and her family. This heavy handed approach may win a battle. It'll also lose a war. This type of response to parents who have been supportive through the years, especially when it came to bond issues and stuff like that, make some parents feel as if they are now worth nothing, unless they get on the bandwagon. Kind of like, well that was then, what have you done for us today? As I said, this has the potential for dividing the parent support, not enhancing it. Still no factual comparative data, or explanation of how a school being touted as a success regressed but is considered an example to share. Still no response to the questions submitted last week.
Hatteras sorry for the parent who as you said got a "slap in the face" regarding the "modified yr rd school calendar" once again these are not yr round schools johnston co is not trying to be wake county by any means. We are our own school system. Whaever school she called to get info she needs to get the name of the person and report it to the principal of that school. The modified school calendar used in 2 jonhston co schools have shown improvment(johnstonk12.com) even though they are still in early stages. It has shown that students retain more learning from the previous scholl yr due to shorter summer break. tests were given math/reading in both schools PRIOR to adoption of modified calendar showed 67% of students had regressed in proficiency from pevious yr. The same test was given in the beginning of 2009-2010 schol yr AFTER both schools had been on modified schools schedule and it showed that 27% had regressed from pervious yr. This is over a course of a 2 yr period but uc the % has decreased dramatically and will continue to decline. Also with the modified schedule school begins in late july instead of mid august(maybe 2 -3 week difference then traditional school) but they get out the SAME time as traditional schools. This is unlike year rd schools where the school is occuped every week of the yr using up to 4 groups of students on "multi track" schedules...hope these factys help you out hatteras as well as parent who called you on phone
From the beginning, I referred to this by the name that the schools have pushed for it's adoption, "Academic Enhanced Calendar". I am under no illusion as to its being a 'year round' calendar. Try reading over the bulk of the pages. If you are going to attribute words to me, please attempt to get a comprehensive feel for them. You are providing data based on an intervention to schools that were not doing well, certainly that did not compare to the Cleveland area schools. Yet, at the first indication of a positive change (for which I'm happy for those students and schools, BTW) it seems that there is a push for all to adopt the changed calendar. No data/ no evidence of long term success that is applicable to all schools. The scores you tout can also be explained by this phenomenom: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.davemanuel.com/images/dead_cat_bounce.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.davemanuel.com/2007/12/31/what-is-a-dead-cat-bounce/&h=165&w=230&sz=11&tbnid=P9L_ygvKE6nZeM:&tbnh=77&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddead%2Bcat%2Bbounce&zoom=1&q=dead+cat+bounce&usg=__VeZMcSLH17NM8J7vJtZ-tFMzguE=&sa=X&ei=4IJ3TebJG8K60QHZm8zfBg&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAw
But if they can improve, so can we. Improvement is improvement whether you were excelling or failing at the beginning.
Dr. Croom's explanation at the DRES meeting was that the parents of rising Kindergarten students are not included because the county still doesn't know who all those parents/students are. He said they were including 5th grade parents (rising 6th graders) because they know the "culture of the school." I'm still confused on what the culture of the school has to do with the effectiveness of one calendar over another.
Show us the proof. At some point, one reaches a point of marginal return, where each additional asset applied provides less value that the previous asset. Yes, a utility curve generally trends upward, up until it reaches the point of diminishing returns. You keep repeating the pleasantries for which many of us seek evidence. Trust, but verify. And there has been no independent evidence provided, just supposition and anecdotal evidence of a equivocal short term improvement. Most people wouldn't buy a pet or a car under these circumstances. We'd at least like to see the breeder's papers for a pet, or the sticker and perhaps some consumer reports evidence for the car. Why not require evidence for such a large change, before we make the choice?
We're loading the car for a Sunday ride to Abilene I heard Dr Harvey present this to a group of young lieutenants at Fort Bragg, where the ideas of risk taking and risk aversion were discussed. The take way for most of us is that it is our responsibility to accept the risk of disagreeing with orders or suggestions that are not logical or moral. That process requires moral courage to speak up and ask for clarification. The responses to which we've been treated are unvarying, as if they are being repeated from one set of bullet points. I worry that the perception is that if something is repeated often enough, it assumes a legitimacy that it may not deserve. In Dr Harvey's words, the lack of questioning this process is 'loading the car." http://www.rmastudies.org.nz/documents/AbileneParadoxJerryHarvey.pdf
Aren't you doing the same thing just with your own set of bullet points? I worry that you repeating the same thing over and over again "assumes a legitimacy that it may not deserve." Everyone gets your points, but some will still disagree with you.
hatteras I have given you the numbers you have to remember we are only talking about 2 schools with the modified schedule and they are title one schools so those improvements are great for title one. 2 schools over the course of one yr(being a modified school) not sure what you are looking for its only been a yr. You keep talking about proof etc how much more proof do you need. It s only a yr....sooo.....as your statements have proven to show you are not for this calendar and not looking to look outside the box. Here something you should do go to the johsnton co school web sites and email a staff member who works in the modified schools and ask them the questions you need answered. Obviously the answeres you seek are not here and what a better way of getting info then via email to staff who are working in this calendar. kmollins---you are right improvement is improvement no matter what you measure
Speaking for myself only, you have made my point. Why is the school administration wanting all elementary schools to consider this *enhanced* calendar when only two schools in our county are currently on it? And they are only in their third year on it so there is no data from our county to prove how well it does/doesn't work. They haven't even shown any data from other counties with schools on this type calendar. Doesn't that concern anyone?
