Bibles in Cumberland County

It may be old and tired, but it is the law of the land until the Supreme Court reverses itself. The school cannot prevent students from bringing their own bibles to school and using them outside of regular classes. But if the school is providing the bibles, they are in violation of the establishment clause.

 

As long as they are not identified as a cult, what is the problem?

My point exactly.

 

But how would you define or identify a cult? Some groups identify LDS as a cult, and we have a member of that religion running for president. A quick google search produces a wide variety of definitions of cult. Here's one from http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

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Of course, that site goes into a great deal of discussion following the humorous opening quote.
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Eh, I betcha there is some task force that has a list of cults in the US. <win> Seriously tho - when you say "cult" that brings images of David Koresh and Manson to mind, not boys on bikes wearing ties! I think we could find a happy medium, why not form a committee with the PTA or the PFT!

 

I was brought up with no need for another "testament of Christ" as taught by the LDS or the interpretations of the Jehovah's Witnesses. In adulthood, in researching them, I too find that their believes are very unorthodox and contrary to my own. For this reason, I have been surprised to see some fundamental Christians put their support behind Romney. From However, I do understand that we're not electing a minister but rather a leader. That is a key point. He does seem to be a very intelligent man, but not the only intelligent man with faith in his background.

That said, I am more convinced that Huckabee is the man I'd most likely vote for...and not just because of his Chuck Norris endorsed.

 

Would Scientology be labeled as a cult, which a number of countries have done, or a religion? Would we really want to leave such a thing up to the PTA or a School Board?

 

Did you see the Huckabee interview on ABC?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/11/immigration-han.html
He does make sense on some issues, I will agree.
(That link starts off about Giuliani, you have to scroll down about halfway for the Huckabee part. Then look at the links on the left, and it takes you to more Huckabee info.)

 

I guess it would depend on what the decided definition of "cult" is. Is it just a different Chrisian-based Religion, that has additional/different ceremonies (like for instance Mormons, Witnesses)? Or is it some guy marrying multiple women, their daughters, and living on a compound somewhere unable to contact their family and forced to surrender all their worldly posessions?

Big difference between the two.

Or how about the people who were going to meet the mothership with their purple sheets and matching Nikes?

 

Yeah, the first thing I think of is Jim Jones and the Kool-aid, and there are a lot of clear-cut cases, but there's a continuum, and where do we draw the line? You and I might agree, but others might have different ideas.

You know, the more I think about all this, the more I think we don't even want to get into this with elementary and middle school kids. I can see some advanced HS classes in comparative religions, elective courses, and I know most colleges and universities offer that kind of courses. But I don't think we want to start letting anybody pass out religious materials in elementary schools. Parents can teach that at home, and take (not send) their kids to church if it's important to them.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Definitely the HS level.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS church (Mormons) do not really share in the acceptance of the Holy Trinity and Christ as does the traditional Christian Church. Jehovah's Witnesses do not even hold Christ in the same regard. Scientology is the brainchild of L. Ron Hubbard (the science-fiction writer) and Christian Science can even be added to the list of not sharing the same views as traditional Christian beliefs.

 

So does that mean that some or all of those are cults in your opinion? (Just asking, not trying to start something, because the definition of "cult" can vary so much.)

 

I would tend to agree, however I do not think the mentioning of God should be withheld from children in school such as in patriotic song, pledge of allegiance or in understanding the purpose for the birth of this country. The belief in God (specifically the Christian faith) is what brought our forefathers to this country to begin with and that shouldn't be swept under the rug just for a small few who would like to rewrite history because they choose not to accept God personally. Like it or not, God has been an important part of this country's formation and it shouldn't be ignored.

At one time the passing out of Bibles would not have been a problem in public schools and it gave children something to receive as their very own. However, in our day and age that we live in, the Bible must be considered in the public places to be of no greater importance than any other religious book or even no book at all. We are becoming a godless society.

Remember when Christmas was inspiring. It excited the imagination. Today, we can't have too many wreaths, too many trees, too many "Merry Christmas" banners, nativity scenes, etc. Its only a matter of time before Santa Claus will be barred from local malls. We all know it.

I, for one, am tired of "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings". They are all right in context, but I am a Christian and celebrate Christmas. I grew up celebrating Christmas and that's what its going to be this year.

 

Exactly. The problem is, most take that phrase as gospel (for the lack of better terms) and say there is a "separation of church and state" and continuously misuse it such as this person did. You, at least, have the proper interpretation and not just parroting what some politician said so twist it into what most have today.

Frequest accusations? Not at all. I just get tired of people using this phrase to their own advantage to twist it into some "law" they think exists. They hear what the media and politicians have said what it means and they believe it without researching it themselves.

No, he/she completely misquoted it. What baffles me, it that you quote it properly above and then turn around and agree with what he/she posted which is completely the opposite of what you said above. It is not to have them "keep their hands off religion" (I would love to see where it says that), it simply says that there shall be no government mandated religion and that the government shall not interfere with the practice thereof. What you are saying is that Jim Jones and David Koresh were in the right and what they did should not have been interfered with by the government by "keeping their hands off religion".

 

From my point of view, I do indeed consider them "cult-ish". Now don't get me wrong. I'm not the type to hate someone for their beliefs. I've known a few people that were either Mormons or JWs and just treated them no different than I would anybody else, but that isn't to say that I accept their doctrines. Never really known anyone that was a Scientologist personally. As for Christian Science, there is a place of worship for them over in Kinston. I've seen it.

 

So then, Jester, is Islam a cult? What about Judaism? Any cateogrization of Eastern or Asian beliefs? What about Native American?

I understand that you were raised with a "belief" system, that sustains you. Does that automatically reduce those who haven't "benefitted" from your beliefs to a heathen, cultist, pagan or unchosen status?

Those who claim that their religious beliefs or freedom to not accept religious beliefs, are being undermined, when the Pledge of Allegiance is being recited have some standing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Witnesses (and many others) do not recite the Pledge. And the inclusion of the words, Under God" in it, was a rather recent addition, in the 1950s.

Non-Christiians seemed to have always been dismissed by Christians. Perhaps, because I see this as vain and pride filled, this flies in the face of my teachings of Christ. He was, according to my teachers, not vain or arrogant, nor did he tolerate those who were. Rahter than humbly teaching Christian beliefs by actions, many instead seem to talk a good game.

I do not claim to be perfect. I do not claim that you are imperfect. I am trying to be able to wrap my understanding around this.

 

Islam, however does not use the Bible as the basis for their beliefs. While I do not accept Islam, it is a worldwide religion born about 600 years after Christianity and, while it has various factions, it does have a common theme that is acceptable among Muslims.

To me a cult is one that takes the Bible, for instance, and dictates the need for their own exclusive interpretation of it (usually by one individual or group of individuals) or adds to it their own books that are formulated by an individual or a group of individuals. Those beliefs would be unorthodox from those widely held by fundamental believers in that faith. Mormons are not orthodox in their beliefs and are not usually counted as Christians in census records, but rather as distinct members of their own religion. Jehovah's Witnesses are likewise unorthodox in their beliefs from those of the Christian Church. Remember that Apostle Paul warned about accepting another Gospel other than the one that was being preached, even if delivered by an angel. Islam was supposedly revealed to Mohammed 600 years after the crucifixion by an angel. In the 1800s, the LDS church believes that an angel delivered another testament to John Smith. I personally take Paul's warning literally that these are false teachings. The LDS church has made prophecies that they had to recant in their past.

That's my viewpoint. Understand that I'm not attempting to be judgemental myself, but I'm looking at the Bible and then seeing these unorthodox beliefs and asking myself are they contrary to what the Word of God says? If so, then I believe them to be false teachings.

 

Interesting four of the first six presidents have a well documented background of not believing in the Trinity. So based on your reasoning, do you fall outside the intentions of the founding fathers of our country?

By the way of the remaining two, there is a number of correspondence from that time and at least one biography indicating that George Washington probably did not believe in the Trinity and the remaining President James Monroe is a bit of an unknown factor. Most of Monroe’s personal correspondence were burned by Monroe, the few remaining correspondence don’t deal with religion.

I for one am not tired of the Holidays! Whether you want it or not I wish you a great:

[FONT=&quot]Amaterasu[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Beiwe Festival[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Christmas[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuorius Riuri[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deygān[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DōngZhì Festival[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Goru[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hanukkah[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hogmanay[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Inti Raymi[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Junkanoo[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Karachun[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kwanzaa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Koleda[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lenæa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lucia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Makara Sankranti[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Makara Sankranti[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mean Geimrech[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Modranicht[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]New Years[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pongal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perchta ritual[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rozhanitsa Feast[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sanghamitta Day[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Saturnalia[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Şeva Zistanê[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sol Invictus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Soyal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tekufah[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wayeb[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yule[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Zagmuk[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ziemassvētki[/FONT]


Or as like I like to say, Seasons Greetings or Happy Holidays! :mrgreen:

 

P.S. I have been to the Mormon Disneyland and Jesus of Nazareth is front and center to the point that it is in the title of their religions official name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

Religion and politics do go hand in hand these days and they are still two topics that you can't convince someone on the opposite side of your fence to waiver on.

People should just accept this as a fact. Why argue through page after page about the same bs?

In the end, it doesn't matter what the schools do or don't allow/handout/or try to shove down a students throat. Free will and common sense is in most of us, for those that lack the latter. . .oh well.

Children have their own gut feelings and they are far wiser than most of us give them credit for. Have any of you watched that show Kid Nation? I've been following it and when the topic of religion came up, wow, it became HEATED! Those children ages 8-14 argued very much like the adults on this board, and in the end, they had bibles, the koran (sp) etc. available for whomever wanted them. Some asked questions about forms of worship, but no one was converted. Some formed prayer groups and benefited from them. Others didn't take on any form of worship and nobody damned them for it. Those children found comfort in having the choice to do whatever they wanted and that's the way it should be.

Religion does not have to be shoved down anybodies throat, nor do we have to shield our children from it.

All forms of religious literature is just that - literature. Stories told in various forms by people of different beliefs. We don't have to agree with all of those beliefs, but to pretend that if we ban them those beliefs will cease to exist, would be just plain fool-hardy.

When such a big to-do is made of something, it really gives it much more credence.

When I was a kid, if people put up a stink and ranted that the bibles in my school should not have been there, I may have not only read it from cover to cover, but would have likely memorized it as well. Kids are like that, can't we all remember back that far?